banditone - Charles Barkley
ncih - Moses Malone
empdenied - Wilt Chamberlain
tricky24 - Dennis Rodman
dh555 - Larry Bird
uvasooner - Magic Johnson

jakotay - Michael Jordan
xxevilivexx - Lebron James
Shapandrew7 - Dwyane Wade
robocoach - David Robinson
sappy - Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
scudmissle - Shaquille O'Neal

eleibowitz - Chris Paul
tarheel1991 - Karl Malone
longtallbrad - Oscar Robertson
badja - Tracy McGrady
ashamael - Dwight Howard
gtak - Shawn Marion

lhtgk
captainzen
felonius
98average
coachcroft
bsmuke

That was a very illuminating discussion about the PG position. Now that he has been drafted, I still like Big O the best.

I believe in Magic.

Posted by robocoach on 7/7/2010 1:00:00 PM (view original):
That was a very illuminating discussion about the PG position. Now that he has been drafted, I still like Big O the best.

The Big O is the other guy I'd definitely draft before Paul in a $42M league.  His minutes and overall game just screams $42M.  I especially love his 64-65 season... only 60-something defense and a little less boards, but his price drops IMMENSELY, allowing you to load up elsewhere.

His FTAs drop for the 64-65 season, too, but he still chucks up a lot of them.  Really, comparing his stats for the 63-64 and 64-65 seasons is an interesting study in just how expensive defense is in this sim, relative to other factors.

Having said that, I'm not sure which of his seasons I'll use but it'll be one of those two.

And ash, I came within a hair of taking Howard instead, and I just KNEW you'd take him if I didn't.

okay, reactions thus far...

Barkley - He's not the consensus #1 in this format, but he's definitely a top 5 and will give you something nobody else can... 60%+ efg%, 24%+ usg%, 12%+ oreb (33%+ creb%), a ridiculous amount of FTAS, a couple of steals per game, a block a game, and makes the people around him shoot better and is 100% effective at the SF position.  If you use him there, he's worth the draft slot.  If you end up using him at PF, then you didn't get the value for your pick.  I'm still shocked to see him go as high, but with the number of 'ships he's brought me in $42M format, I can't argue against it.  Only for it.


How Jordan or the King don't go in the top 5 blows my mind.  Yet, looking at the top 5, I can't really argue against it.  Except maybe for Bird.  Bird is an elite player in the sim, but I think he is in the 10-15 range when it comes to building a team around him.  I realize dh tries to build teams without using a bunch of the same guys he already has, so it makes sense. 

D-Wade might be a smidge early by others' standards, but I think not..  He's certainly a dominant guy and the fact that you can put him at PG is something I haven't seen people take advantage of yet.  He brings you stuff you can't get from anyone else.  That's what you're looking for early in the draft.  There are only a few guys in the sim you can say that about.

cp3 before big O... already been there, done that.

I don't think I've seen the Mailman go this early (in a while, anyway), but most of the same arguments for Barkley apply here.  My favorite $42M season, however, doesn't work at SF (well, it's not 100%).  He just costs more than Barkley (higher defense) and gets less offensive boards - that's the only reason I don't think he's a top 5, too.

tmac is going higher and higher... and that's valid.  He's the best SG of the next tier in SGs (Jordan, James & Wade are on a separate plane of existence), and he's much more cost efficient than any of them.  You can't argue using a middle-1st round pick for what he brings.  I'm proud and ****** off at the same time that he went this early.

I don't like the Matrix this early in the ODL, but as I sit here and try to figure out why... I decide my logic is wrong.  He's expensive and doesn't get to the line much.  Those are my only issues with him.  He is a hell of a rebounder from the 3 (absolutely key for current state of sim), makes some 3s (not many guys do this and rebound well), and doesn't turn the ball over much.  A couple of his seasons have very, very nice efg%.  So, yeah, Matrix absolutely is a good pick here, if you know what to put around him.

Posted by longtallbrad on 7/7/2010 4:00:00 PM (view original):
His FTAs drop for the 64-65 season, too, but he still chucks up a lot of them.  Really, comparing his stats for the 63-64 and 64-65 seasons is an interesting study in just how expensive defense is in this sim, relative to other factors.

They do and they are.  Thing with the Big O is that you can't pay any attention to his real stats.  None at all.  While this is true for most players, the era and pace normalization that occurs in this sim makes none of it actually happen for the big O.  The bad thing is that you won't get the boards or ftas he got (or points).  The good thing is - you don't get the turnovers, either!  Well, he still turns it over a lot, but yeah, it goes way down.

So, if you can, look at just the advanced stats and tell me what you see.

	Usage%	FG%+	eFG%	OReb%	DReb%	Ast%	Stl%	Blk%
Advanced	26.0	112	50.8	4.2	12.2	27.9	1.9	0.9

tov% (using WIS totals since turnovers didn't exist) is 15.1%
3,507 minutes (translates to 3,577 in sim)

His 813 ftas with 26% usage and the sim's normal drop off means he'll probably get 350+.  If he's the highest usg% guy on your team, 500+

16.4% creb% on a PG is juicy.  Thing I like about this better than CP3 is the offensive boards.  It's harder to get offensive boards later on without making huge sacrifices elsewhere, so if my PG can get me 4 to 6% from there, I'm stoked.  28% ast% is perfect, especially if you end up with a SG that dishes well.  Can't complain about the 1.9% stl% either.  He'll make 100+ threes for you, too.  Don't sleep on the minutes... having him out there for virtually the entire game is NOT a bad thing, ESPECIALLY in $42M format.

I know fg%+ doesn't work, but it seems to work on him.  Maybe it's because of the ast% I had when I used this version before, but the last time I used Oscar (this version) he shot almost 55% from the field for me.

This for a million less than cp3's 08-09 season (who has close to same rebounding numbers and realistic ftas).  You're basically getting the extra fg% boosting (from the ast%) and less turnovers (but not as many as you'd think... remember, sim cp3 will have more turnovers than RL cp3 while sim Oscar will have less than RL Oscar supposedly had).  cp3's 07-08 season is more appetizing to me in a $42M, but the 08-09 season is so much easier to compare.



ps - I was certain you'd take Howard.  Coincidentally, Oscar was on my proxy list.

I think I built around Howard 3 ODL seasons ago - the season before I started making the playoffs in this league - but took him too early and ended up disappointed.  In some important ways I like him better than Shaq for a $42 mil league.  Principally, he rebounds better.

I like Shaq better mostly because of his usage.   30%+ usg (unless I use 93-94 season, but it still has 29%) - there's no doubt who will be my high usage man.  That means foul trouble for opponents.  Howard's low(er) usage means he is almost always going to be 2nd fiddle, if not third, on my team, which means I won't be getting the most out of those 897 ftas.  There's also better synergy between paint/perimeter with Shaq, also because of the usage.  One Shaq + 3 bombers is a lot harder to defend than Howard + 3 bombers (even though Howard has the higher paint percentage).

I like Howard better because of his boards.  He qualifies as a board lord to me (creb% >40).  Getting a paint monster (usg% > 22, paint% > 60) who is a board lord (only other ones are Wilt & Moses) is something special.  He also can play PF, which makes his value go up infinitely, as that means I can pair him up with one of those strange guys who only play center.

If I'm straight up drafting to win, I probably take Howard over Shaq.  Speaking $42M, of course.

I didn't think it was a mistake, I just wondered why he goes consistently high in the draft. M Malone,  Barkley and Wilt I get 1-2-3, after that there is a (near) consensus on some people that I was wondering about a little bit. I usually start with grabbing guys with high positives, even if they have negatives, Paul is the pick of some one who starts by eliminating the negatives,  and then has good positives. I guess I just don't think that way.

"How Jordan or the King don't go in the top 5 blows my mind.  Yet, looking at the top 5, I can't really argue against it.  Except maybe for Bird.  Bird is an elite player in the sim, but I think he is in the 10-15 range when it comes to building a team around him.  I realize dh tries to build teams without using a bunch of the same guys he already has, so it makes sense."


yea bird is not a top 5 player....i was really hoping lebron or mj would be picked in the top 4 so i could get one of moses/wilt/rodman.....i do feel bird is worthy of a top 10 pick though....the combo of boards/assists/defense/efficiency and being a high usage #1 scoring option all from the sf spot really makes drafting the other positions so much easier

Posted by eleibowitz on 7/7/2010 5:25:00 PM (view original):

Im so glad there's such a complete analysis on my mistake taking Chris Paul, LOL

No man, it's definitely not a mistake!  I think he may have been a few picks too high based on how I value & build teams, but I'm the first person to that will tell you to pick someone early if you think you need THAT person.  For example, Chauncey Billups.  That guy brings stuff to your team that absolutely nobody else in this sim will give you.  Many scoff at him being a first rounder because of his relatively low efg% (just over 50%) and his expense ($7.1M), but he gives you a ton of threes (at which he'll make such a high % of that efg% will be much, much higher), tons of ftas (high, how many PGs out there give you this AND do as much from the perimeter?  Scratch that.  How many players PERIOD give you that?), 31% ast% (!!) and a tov% that's almost single digits (unheard of for a PG, especially one that has the ball as much as he does).  On top of that, he doesn't foul and plays good defense (negligible right now but it is an asset.  sort of.  makes him more expensive [side note - the 07-08 season is a fantastic option as well, especially if you end up strapped for cash later on in the draft]).

If that is the guy you absolutely need, and you're sure he won't be there when you pick again, you take him.  There's no way CP3 would have been there when you picked again, so if that was what you needed to make your team strategy go, then by all means that was the best pick you could make there!

look you can correct all your mistakes by taking advantange of the repercussions of other peoples mistakes as they play out over the next several rounds - i f you are not thinknig 3 or 4 rounds ahead (i.e. if I take this guy I need to get more XX) then you aren't in the right league at this point anyway and I have a great 7 card stud site I'd like to invite you to