Posted by tcochran on 11/18/2010 3:21:00 PM (view original):

Posted by hughesjr on 11/18/2010 3:17:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tenaciousdx on 11/18/2010 2:20:00 PM (view original):
so, regardless of talent you will run for the same average as your opponent.  Why not spend all your recruting money on QBs and WRs and DBs and Ks (since the engine decides if you will make a kick before you actually try it!)?

You did see the part of the post in the critical news where they said they were going to monitor games and do tweaks, right?

Lets assume that the SIM/Human balance is right now as close as it is going to get and it will get better as some tweaks are made.

"This update to Gridiron Dynasty is a huge change and one we feel improves the game dramatically both in terms of realism and competitiveness."

Don't be a clown.

If they were monitoring results they would address the fact most of the top 15 in every world has lost to a 2-10 SIM team.

This would be because the SIM knows how the system works and depth charts and subs completely and does it right... we are still trying to figure everything out but i have been with WIS a long time and not sure if i want to continue with this update as is     

formation IQ on top of player experience. I think it was Gino that pointed out earlier, I'll bet all these great teams getting rocked are starting JR/SR's that havent started in 1-2 seasons as the underclassmen were getting token 'starts' to raise WE and fulfill promises.

Posted by hughesjr on 11/18/2010 3:21:00 PM (view original):
We also need to take into account Formation IQ ... that would tend to increase the SIMs YPC and reduce Human YPC for now.  Once human coaches practice some formations we might see this change a bit.

I have practiced ND Box for many seasons and could not run out of it against a much inferior team yesterday.  Last night;  I switched everything to mirror how a typical  SIM is set up and won big today.  I used default everything.  It has been turned into a coin flip.  Tell me how that is fun.

Posted by hughesjr on 11/18/2010 3:21:00 PM (view original):
We also need to take into account Formation IQ ... that would tend to increase the SIMs YPC and reduce Human YPC for now.  Once human coaches practice some formations we might see this change a bit.

Huh?  Human coaches have been practicing formations for years and lose to terrible sims.

Get real.  They didn't add anything into the formation IQ aspect.

And I am quitting.  My seasons will be gone soon.  They couldn't be gone soon enough.

yatzr, again, thank you so much for what you do.

Now, looking at the stats again, what I see is this:
In DIA, humans gain slightly higher yards/carry vs sims than vs humans - possbile explanation, well, with better defenses for humanswe expected a higher difference in the data, but what we also have to remember, the best teams do not play sims, they play other humans, the humans who play against sims are normally the ones who are hoping to get a marginal bowl invite, with 7 wins.  Those that play humans are looking for a better SOS, pushing them into higher bowl games.

In DIA, sims do better vs sims than humans do - few reasons are possible.  first one, when I'm in DIA, I schedule against all humans, then next year one of them leaves their school, they have better players than an non-human-owned-previously sim, which is what all of the crappy teams have to play.  If I do schedule a sim, I look for the one that has the best record from last season, figuring that trend may continue, and that will help my SOS (if he goes say 8-5 compared to 1-12).

By subtracting one from the other, we also can figure out that humans do better vs humans than sims do, at DIA about 3.5% better, overall about 4.5%.

Most troubling figure:  How many sims are in DIII, this is scary.  Guess they are not selling this game much...

Posted by nshreders on 11/18/2010 3:23:00 PM (view original):
formation IQ on top of player experience. I think it was Gino that pointed out earlier, I'll bet all these great teams getting rocked are starting JR/SR's that havent started in 1-2 seasons as the underclassmen were getting token 'starts' to raise WE and fulfill promises.

Right, and SIMs are still starting JR/SR's like they always have. So they are playing JRs with no experience and SRs with one year of experience. Meanwhile, I'm playing JR's and SR's with a minimum of 2 years of experience (since they started as FR and SO).

SSoooooo...talent is meaningless....yeap thats realistic...SIMs have crap OL and most have RBs that would never start on a human team but now they are just awesome.

You're still not doing proper comparisons.  You need to compare formation vs. formation across human vs. human, sim vs. sim and human vs. sim

Posted by pb9617 on 11/18/2010 3:37:00 PM (view original):
You're still not doing proper comparisons.  You need to compare formation vs. formation across human vs. human, sim vs. sim and human vs. sim

with some calculation for stregnth of opponent as well, which is going to be difficult to do I would imagine.  We'll never get exact, the question is how little error can we get, and do we believe it is low enough to give accurate results.

Posted by nshreders on 11/18/2010 3:23:00 PM (view original):
formation IQ on top of player experience. I think it was Gino that pointed out earlier, I'll bet all these great teams getting rocked are starting JR/SR's that havent started in 1-2 seasons as the underclassmen were getting token 'starts' to raise WE and fulfill promises.

Disagree with this. Look at my Hayes team. The better JR* RB has been getting starts since his first FR* game. So far he's avg 2ypc against much lesser DL. 

Cross post from another thread.  I would like a serious discussion of this:

Having said that, is there really a formation IQ factor? I can't run the ball anymore with superior talent or gameplanning. But my opponents can't either and I have even less formation practice on defense. Doesn't it make sense that if formation IQ were the big deciding factor in play outcome that my defense would be getting shredded as much as my offense is getting stuffed?

Most troubling figure:  How many sims are in DIII, this is scary.  Guess they are not selling this game much...

In Stagg World out of 612 teams, only 270 are filled or 44.1%.

And they are planning on filling worlds with this?

Posted by slid64er on 11/18/2010 4:04:00 PM (view original):
Cross post from another thread.  I would like a serious discussion of this:

Having said that, is there really a formation IQ factor? I can't run the ball anymore with superior talent or gameplanning. But my opponents can't either and I have even less formation practice on defense. Doesn't it make sense that if formation IQ were the big deciding factor in play outcome that my defense would be getting shredded as much as my offense is getting stuffed?

In my opinion, if they really did implement a formation IQ factor, they would have made it accessible to the coach either from an assistant report or on their profile.  Much like before when formation practice did not matter, it is just a cosmetic detail designed to make the game appear more in-depth.

Now, formation IQ is being used as the convenient excuse to explain the inexplicable results, even though I think we've already disproved the major impact of formation IQ.

Posted by hughesjr on 11/18/2010 3:21:00 PM (view original):
We also need to take into account Formation IQ ... that would tend to increase the SIMs YPC and reduce Human YPC for now.  Once human coaches practice some formations we might see this change a bit.

you are assuming that most coaches don't practice formations.  In fact, many coaches have been practicing formation for years, yet we have lots of human vs. sim matchups that don't make sense.

Posted by slid64er on 11/18/2010 4:04:00 PM (view original):
Cross post from another thread.  I would like a serious discussion of this:

Having said that, is there really a formation IQ factor? I can't run the ball anymore with superior talent or gameplanning. But my opponents can't either and I have even less formation practice on defense. Doesn't it make sense that if formation IQ were the big deciding factor in play outcome that my defense would be getting shredded as much as my offense is getting stuffed?

I honestly believe that formation IQ has nothing to do with this issue.  It appears that there is a range built in to the code that has a random deviation factor.   Example:

80% of all runs must be between 2-4 yards.  20% can deviate from that range.  That deviation can be (-) yards or (+) yards.  I think talent only really comes into play on the 20% and even then it is random.   So a 65/65/65 back can break a long run almost as often as a 90/90/90 because the 20% is such a small sample of total plays.  My guess is that it may even be 90/10 deviation or less.   This is a programming issue IMO.  It does not matter when teams that are relatively even are playing but sticks out like a sore thumb on talent mismatches.  I do not think that testing took this into account.

In effect they put a governor on the run game by creating a maximum gain on a large portion of runs regardless of talent.  The deviation percentage of plays is so small that a great player will only break the range a few more times than an average player.  And, the (-) runs work the same way.  Avg/carry can then be skewed by where (+) deviation runs happen on the field.  You may havea 7 yard TD run that would have been a 80 yd run if not for field position.  The (-) deviation is why we are seeing so many safeties as well.

CONTINUED:  I also believe that OL/DL are much less important to the run game now due to the range factor.  But very important to passing game.  The question now becomes "what is a great pass blocker look like?" and  "what does a great pass rusher look like?".  The run game is settled into a range now so effective passing teams will succeed offensively.  However, I think field position is the greatest difference in this new engine.  Ks and Ps and conservative play calling will win alot of games.  That is why SIMs are winning an exorbinant amount of games early.  They are already set up to take advantage of the new engine.  All those teams have K and P and call a conservative game.  I have a theory that the best defense in this new engine is the new nickel.  You will need some great DBs with LB skills but my guess is that you can play nickel and cut down on big plays while still holding your opponent in the 4 ypc range.