Diamonds in the rough - Page 2 - Suggestions

Posts: 18997 (0)

Hall of Famer

4 1 166 32 129

Prospect

Posted by dyoungquist on 6/19/2010 11:39:00 AM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 6/19/2010 7:18:00 AM (view original):
DITR are free players. Complaining about free is bad form.
This is a forum for suggestions on how to make the game better and a place to constructively discuss the pros and cons of those suggetions.

When a feature of HBD does not perform the intended purpose for which it was added, pointing that out is not complaining but rather constructive (helpful) criticism.

The fallacy in this argument is the position that DITR's do not perform their intended purpose.

They do. They make a handful of players potentially better.

The real problem is with owner's expectations, not with the DITR process itself.

That said . . . if it ain't broke, don't fix it. And it ain't broke.

6/19/2010 9:51 PM

zbrent716

Posts: 1970 (0)

Hall of Famer

90 1 58 77

Prospect

Posted by tecwrg on 6/19/2010 9:51:00 PM (view original):
Posted by dyoungquist on 6/19/2010 11:39:00 AM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 6/19/2010 7:18:00 AM (view original):
DITR are free players. Complaining about free is bad form.
This is a forum for suggestions on how to make the game better and a place to constructively discuss the pros and cons of those suggetions.

When a feature of HBD does not perform the intended purpose for which it was added, pointing that out is not complaining but rather constructive (helpful) criticism.
The fallacy in this argument is the position that DITR's do not perform their intended purpose.

They do. They make a handful of players potentially better.

The real problem is with owner's expectations, not with the DITR process itself.

That said . . . if it ain't broke, don't fix it. And it ain't broke.

"The fallacy in this argument is the position that DITR's do not perform their intended purpose."

This is the important point. Nearly every discussion suggesting better DITR begins with something like "they are supposed to produce ML players." While that may be the case, I haven't seen where anyone from WhatIf has indicated that actually is the purpose of them.

And no, saying "they are called diamonds so they must be good because diamonds are valuable" is not a reasonable justification for saying they must be ML players. The phrase "diamond in the rough" can refer to anything that is more valuable than a first glance might indicate, not only to those things actually as valuable as diamonds.

That said, if I missed a developer's chat or something that indicated DITR are supposed to create ML players, please point it out.

6/19/2010 10:27 PM

tecwrg

Posts: 18997 (0)

Hall of Famer

4 1 166 32 129

Prospect

This was the original DITR announcement, on 3/21/2007:

"And last but certainly not least, we have added in Diamonds in the Rough. Occasionally, mediocre players will see a projected ratings boost based on their Coaching Staff and work ethic. This will occur sometime around the mid-point of the season."

Why people continue to read more into this than was actually stated is beyond me.

6/19/2010 11:13 PM

dyoungquist

Posts: 865 (0)

Hall of Famer

180

Rookie

Some people are for changing/improving DitRs, some are not. Both sides have stated thier case here. It is now up to WIS admin to decide if any changes will be made. Thanks to all for participating.

6/20/2010 12:29 AM

zbrent716

Posts: 1970 (0)

Hall of Famer

90 1 58 77

Prospect

Posted by dyoungquist on 6/20/2010 12:29:00 AM (view original):
Some people are for changing/improving DitRs, some are not. Both sides have stated thier case here. It is now up to WIS admin to decide if any changes will be made. Thanks to all for participating.

I must be reading something different than you are if you've seen anyone state a case either way here.

6/20/2010 12:36 AM

travisg

Posts: 2146 (0)

Hall of Famer

11 268

Prospect

tecwrg: "The real problem is with owner's expectations, not with the DITR process itself."

+1

6/20/2010 8:49 AM

MikeT23

Posts: 58012 (0)

Hall of Famer

87 1 47 1 189

Prospect

As tec said, it's the expectations that are the problem. No one has ever been guaranteed to get a stud from a 14th round pick with a DITR. If you get something useful from it, good for you. If not, well, you didn't do anything to earn it anyway.

And, for the record, the ONLY reason I comment in threads like these is because WifS is often too user-friendly. If 10 users say "This is a good idea" and no one disputes it, it may happen. In my opinion, giving owners studs for nothing will have a negative effect on the game. So don't get your panties wadded up if someone says your "great" idea sucks. That's the thing about open forums.

6/20/2010 8:50 AM

mitchrapp

Posts: 807 (0)

Hall of Famer

106 20 14 109

Prospect

My biggest problem with the DITR's is the fact I never get a decent one ;). Probably my fault on some level, if you have less true crappy players in the minors, your chances improve greatly.

6/20/2010 10:25 AM

cespencer

Posts: 39 (0)

Hall of Famer

43 1 61 16 26

Prospect

In 20 seasons no diamonds have reached my majors. Two are at AAA now ... which is where they will stay. Guess I need to look for some 4-leaf clovers.

6/20/2010 11:57 AM

rebelt

Posts: 61 (0)

Hall of Famer

1 70

Prospect

The idea that you are getting them "for free" or "because you did nothing" or "you didn't earn it" holds absolutely no water. The same concept applies to the draft, and the same concept applies in MLB as well. The Dodgers didn't do anything special---they picked a shitbag in the 62nd round and wound up with the best-hitting catcher of all time. The Patriots drafted a shitbag with the 199th pick and he just turned out to be one of the best QB's ever and has three championships.

This concept of "getting something for nothing" that is being thrown around here is absurd---it's exactly what the draft is in the first place, it's exactly what the Dodgers did, and it's exactly what will have taken place the next time Mr. Irrelevant becomes an All Star.

All anyone is asking for (that I can see) is that it be a useful part of the game. I haven't seen anyone suggest that every DITR become an all star, but that there be some semblance of realism with it----being labeled a DITR with 17/4 effectiveness ratings is pointless and makes a mockery of the whole thing.

6/20/2010 4:30 PM (edited)

zbrent716

Posts: 1970 (0)

Hall of Famer

90 1 58 77

Prospect

Posted by rebelt on 6/20/2010 4:30:00 PM (view original):
The idea that you are getting them "for free" or "because you did nothing" or "you didn't earn it" holds absolutely no water. The same concept applies to the draft, and the same concept applies in MLB as well. The Dodgers didn't do anything special---they picked a shitbag in the 62nd round and wound up with the best-hitting catcher of all time. The Patriots drafted a shitbag with the 199th pick and he just turned out to be one of the best QB's ever and has three championships.

This concept of "getting something for nothing" that is being thrown around here is absurd---it's exactly what the draft is in the first place, it's exactly what the Dodgers did, and it's exactly what will have taken place the next time Mr. Irrelevant becomes an All Star.

All anyone is asking for (that I can see) is that it be a useful part of the game. I haven't seen anyone suggest that every DITR become an all star, but that there be some semblance of realism with it----being labeled a DITR with 17/4 effectiveness ratings is pointless and makes a mockery of the whole thing.

Except you can increase your chances of getting a good player in the draft, both in MLB and in HBD, by scouting well (in MLB) or by taking the time to carefully adjust rankings (in HBD).

You do nothing (and *can* do nothing) for DITR, so it's not the same thing at all.

6/20/2010 4:34 PM

MikeT23

Posts: 58012 (0)

Hall of Famer

87 1 47 1 189

Prospect

Not sure if you've noticed in your 4 seasons but the HBD draft is nothing like the MLB draft. So, please, in the future, do not make that comparison.

Briefly, 100% of 1st round HBD picks should make the bigs and have a nice career. I can randomly choose any MLB draft and find that half of the players chosen in the first round never played a full season in the bigs.

6/20/2010 4:45 PM

tecwrg

Posts: 18997 (0)

Hall of Famer

4 1 166 32 129

Prospect

Posted by rebelt on 6/20/2010 4:30:00 PM (view original):
The idea that you are getting them "for free" or "because you did nothing" or "you didn't earn it" holds absolutely no water. The same concept applies to the draft, and the same concept applies in MLB as well. The Dodgers didn't do anything special---they picked a shitbag in the 62nd round and wound up with the best-hitting catcher of all time. The Patriots drafted a shitbag with the 199th pick and he just turned out to be one of the best QB's ever and has three championships.

This concept of "getting something for nothing" that is being thrown around here is absurd---it's exactly what the draft is in the first place, it's exactly what the Dodgers did, and it's exactly what will have taken place the next time Mr. Irrelevant becomes an All Star.

All anyone is asking for (that I can see) is that it be a useful part of the game. I haven't seen anyone suggest that every DITR become an all star, but that there be some semblance of realism with it----being labeled a DITR with 17/4 effectiveness ratings is pointless and makes a mockery of the whole thing.

Sorry, but that's a big load of horseshit.

The HBD draft does require some work to be fully successful. Otherwise, you can end up with a high DUR/STA guy with a high projected OVR rating with splits in the 30's or low 40's as your second round pick, while you pass on a reliever with shutdown ratings because he has a lower projected OVR. If you feel the HBD draft is "something for nothing", then you're not putting in the effort you should be, and you're probably losing out on quality talent in rounds 2-5.

But as for DITR, "something for nothing" is ALL it is. There are ways to try to "game" the DITR system if you know what you should be looking for. But for the most part, it's a couple of free upgrades to some randomly selected players. Which is all it's meant to be.

6/20/2010 6:51 PM (edited)

sanderbear

Posts: 64 (0)

Hall of Famer

64 17

Prospect

I think if you generally stay on top of your minors -- especially your minor-league relievers -- you can improve your chances of getting a DITR with major-league potential.

From my experience, keeping track of tryout camp pitchers, and grabbing the ones with the highest control and first pitch, can help. I've had three or four DITRs suddenly have major-league potential who were tryout camp guys. When I signed them, they had projected control of 50ish, splits of 20/20, and pitch projected quality of say, 50/40. OVR in the high 40s. As is, nothing special, but when they become DITR, their control and P1 go to 90ish, P2 goes to mid 60s, and the splits go to mid-50s.

Similarly, if you take the time to rank your draft -- not just for Rounds 1-3, but for most of your draft (maybe 200 guys overall) -- you can have more decent guys who have potential to be DITRs and to become major-league quality.

Long/short, the more guys you have in your minors age 18-22, with OVRs in the 45-59 range, the more likely your DITRs are going to become major-league quality.

6/20/2010 9:05 PM

schuyler101

Posts: 257 (0)

Hall of Famer

113 6 21

Prospect

Posted by sanderbear on 6/20/2010 9:05:00 PM (view original):
I think if you generally stay on top of your minors -- especially your minor-league relievers -- you can improve your chances of getting a DITR with major-league potential.

From my experience, keeping track of tryout camp pitchers, and grabbing the ones with the highest control and first pitch, can help. I've had three or four DITRs suddenly have major-league potential who were tryout camp guys. When I signed them, they had projected control of 50ish, splits of 20/20, and pitch projected quality of say, 50/40. OVR in the high 40s. As is, nothing special, but when they become DITR, their control and P1 go to 90ish, P2 goes to mid 60s, and the splits go to mid-50s.

Similarly, if you take the time to rank your draft -- not just for Rounds 1-3, but for most of your draft (maybe 200 guys overall) -- you can have more decent guys who have potential to be DITRs and to become major-league quality.

Long/short, the more guys you have in your minors age 18-22, with OVRs in the 45-59 range, the more likely your DITRs are going to become major-league quality.

+1

those passable low usage relievers (low dur/stam combo) that you can find in the 5-10 round area are prime targets for the current DITR system (flawed as it may be)

makeup also seems to help for getting these guys, and then having them progress once they get DITR status

6/21/2010 8:23 AM

Forums

Diamonds in the rough Topic

Search Criteria