Diamonds in the rough Topic

Posted by travisg on 6/23/2010 10:45:00 AM (view original):
Posted by apollo7 on 6/23/2010 9:14:00 AM (view original):
I have no problem with that.  If the issue is that we should have to put some investment (ie: budget) into something (presumably coaching) in order to get the reward of better DITRs, sounds like a good idea.
That's precisely the issue; some investment should be necessary to receive gains, whether it's your real-life time or your limited HBD budget.

What if the number of DITRs you see were tied to your advanced scouting budget? Then it would be up to your coaches to push them toward their improved potential. I would also suggest that potential DITRs be somewhat identifiable (e.g., patience/temper/makeup combos, high velocity/low control pitchers, high range/bad glove fielders, etc.) but by no means certain. That way, it might be possible for owners to troll for low-cost int'l FAs in hopes of polishing those turds into diamonds through budget allocations and time spent scouting other teams' players.

That is, it would present an additional strategy for acquiring talent that didn't involve tanking and would also allow for risk (not all or even many players would become DITRs and not all of them would reach their potential).
Rather than specific player 'types' being potential DITRs, I'd suggest it just be players with big spreads in their potential ratings. A 20/20/20/20/20 player wouldn't be a prospective DITR, but a 5/60/5/5/25 player would, and might see those weak ratings 'catch up' to the good one. Finding possible DITRs then becomes a matter of looking for kids with one or two strong ratings.

Again though, as Mike suggested earlier, if there's any kind of pattern at all to who becomes DITRs, all those players will simply be bumped up on everyone's draft board, which defeats the 'late round star' rationale of the whole thing.

6/23/2010 12:06 PM
Posted by deathinahole on 6/23/2010 11:44:00 AM (view original):
DITRs hit a 6 on the fun-o-meter!
Reading people's complaints about DITR shoots up to a 9.5 on the fun-o-meter!

And the classic, apparently mandatory, "cubic zirconia in the rough" comments never fail to make one LOL!
6/23/2010 12:13 PM
Posted by deathinahole on 6/23/2010 11:43:00 AM (view original):
Um, adding something constuctive? Like, "it's more fun"?
deathinahole, after looking at your past history, I'm not going to take anything you have to say as being worth...well...anything.  How do you win only 32 games in a season exactly?
6/23/2010 12:40 PM
Posted by apollo7 on 6/23/2010 12:40:00 PM (view original):
Posted by deathinahole on 6/23/2010 11:43:00 AM (view original):
Um, adding something constuctive? Like, "it's more fun"?
deathinahole, after looking at your past history, I'm not going to take anything you have to say as being worth...well...anything.  How do you win only 32 games in a season exactly?
It's tough to keep up with your teams from a prison cell.
6/23/2010 1:05 PM
That's odd. I reached the same conclusion about apollo7 - that nothing he had to say was going to be worth... well... anything - and I didn't even need to check his HBD history.
6/23/2010 1:11 PM
Posted by apollo7 on 6/23/2010 12:40:00 PM (view original):
Posted by deathinahole on 6/23/2010 11:43:00 AM (view original):
Um, adding something constuctive? Like, "it's more fun"?
deathinahole, after looking at your past history, I'm not going to take anything you have to say as being worth...well...anything.  How do you win only 32 games in a season exactly?
You take over a team that's 2-42.

And, you also don't do it under an alias, because you're sexy enough that even with the 32-130 hit, the chicks still dig ya.
6/23/2010 1:13 PM
Posted by tecwrg on 6/23/2010 12:13:00 PM (view original):
Posted by deathinahole on 6/23/2010 11:44:00 AM (view original):
DITRs hit a 6 on the fun-o-meter!
Reading people's complaints about DITR shoots up to a 9.5 on the fun-o-meter!

And the classic, apparently mandatory, "cubic zirconia in the rough" comments never fail to make one LOL!
Don't you have convulted scenarios to dream up so you get your ability to game the system back?
6/23/2010 1:16 PM
Posted by travisg on 6/23/2010 10:45:00 AM (view original):
Posted by apollo7 on 6/23/2010 9:14:00 AM (view original):
I have no problem with that.  If the issue is that we should have to put some investment (ie: budget) into something (presumably coaching) in order to get the reward of better DITRs, sounds like a good idea.
That's precisely the issue; some investment should be necessary to receive gains, whether it's your real-life time or your limited HBD budget.

What if the number of DITRs you see were tied to your advanced scouting budget? Then it would be up to your coaches to push them toward their improved potential. I would also suggest that potential DITRs be somewhat identifiable (e.g., patience/temper/makeup combos, high velocity/low control pitchers, high range/bad glove fielders, etc.) but by no means certain. That way, it might be possible for owners to troll for low-cost int'l FAs in hopes of polishing those turds into diamonds through budget allocations and time spent scouting other teams' players.

That is, it would present an additional strategy for acquiring talent that didn't involve tanking and would also allow for risk (not all or even many players would become DITRs and not all of them would reach their potential).
the final paragraph is key i think

investing in order to try and get DITRs would be interesting if it were a risky investment...if it were predictable (i.e. you spend 20 million and assure yourself 1 ML DITR a year) i don't think it would add much to the game...

but if it were a high risk investment i could see it adding a lot to the game...
6/23/2010 1:17 PM
Posted by deathinahole on 6/23/2010 1:16:00 PM (view original):
Posted by tecwrg on 6/23/2010 12:13:00 PM (view original):
Posted by deathinahole on 6/23/2010 11:44:00 AM (view original):
DITRs hit a 6 on the fun-o-meter!
Reading people's complaints about DITR shoots up to a 9.5 on the fun-o-meter!

And the classic, apparently mandatory, "cubic zirconia in the rough" comments never fail to make one LOL!
Don't you have convulted scenarios to dream up so you get your ability to game the system back?
Nope, I'm good. Thanks for asking.
6/23/2010 1:20 PM
schuyler101: "investing in order to try and get DITRs would be interesting if it were a risky investment...if it were predictable (i.e. you spend 20 million and assure yourself 1 ML DITR a year) i don't think it would add much to the game...

but if it were a high risk investment i could see it adding a lot to the game..."

What I have in mind is that a higher adv scouting budget would increase the likelihood that your players will turn into DITRs and better coaching would increase the likelihood that those players reach their enhanced projections. There would still be plenty of hidden variables, but the additional scouting costs would be a better investment if it were possible to discern which players were more likely to become DITRs.

FWIW, I actually enjoy the current DITR setup, but I know that it bugs many people and I've never heard a good solution to it. And I also know that some people are annoyed at owners like me who budget $0 for adv scouting, so this might kill two birds with one stone while opening a possible trade market for minor league roster fodder. Imagine the thrill!
6/23/2010 2:14 PM

On the off chance that someone from WIS actually takes the time to read and consider this, let's try to summarize and refine an idea that everyone can actually agree on.

I conceed the fact that my original position of just boosting DITRs with no risk/reward/investment is off base.  However, I will not change my opinion that DITRs, if they are going to exist, should be a more meaningful, as this would add more fun to the game.

So, let's try to refine travisg's outstanding suggestion. 

How about this:

Depending on your advance scouting budget, throughout the season, you will receive a message from your advanced scout stating something along the lines of "Hey, I think Bubba Smith has alot more potential that I originally thought.  With some extra training, some individual attention from the coaching staff, adjustment to his workout, adjustment to his stance, adjustment to his delivery, a trip to a developmental league, etc., I think we can really see some large gains from him in the long run."   This player would then be tagged (within the system) as a "potential" DITR.   At this ponit his actual projections would NOT be changed, nor would he start getting current rating gains based on increased projections.  It would be up to you to keep track of which players have actually been idenified as potential DITRs and ONLY those players who have been so identified had a chance of becoming DITRs. (edit:  the more I think about this I think players that have been identified as "potential" DITRs should have this noted somewhere on their player page, so that this fact could be used in trade negotiations)

On an individual player basis, a player should be more likely to be become a "potential" DITR if they are young (decreasing chance with age) and have high makeup (higher the makeup the more likely to have a breakthrough).

Then after the all star break, 0 to 5 of your "potential" DITRs have a chance at becoming "realized" DITRs.  The formula should be such that the more "potential" DITRs you have identified, the more likely you are to have closer to 5 realized than 0.

Then, the LEVEL of the increases are determined by their minor league coach at time of the increase.

For pitchers, it would be determined by a mix/average/formula based on:

1)  primarily -  pitching coach's pitching IQ (splits, pitches, velocity), discipline (control), and patience (all)
2)  secondarily - bench coach's pitching IQ (splits, pitches, velocity), discipline (control), and patience (all)

For hitters, it would be determiend by a mix/average/forumula based on:

1)  primarily -  hitting coach's hitting IQ (splits,power), discipline (contact,eye), strategy (baserunning), and patience (all)
2)  primarily -  ML fielding coach's fielding IQ (fielding), and patience.
3)  secondarily -  bench coach's hitting IQ (splits, power), fielding IQ (fielding), discipline (contact, eye), strategy (baserunning), and patience (all)

The actual formula that determines the level of increase should be balanced such that if you have top line coaches the increases are of a level that produce ML quality projections.

Benefits of this idea:

1)  Investment = greater payoff...give something to get something
2)  More intersting trading (the value of a "potential" DITR must be factored into trades)
3)  More importance added to advance scouting budget
4)  More importance added to minor league coach hiring (even though already very important)
5)  A tool to get good players that does not involve tanking
6)  More strategic choices.  Should I dump all that budget money into IFA scouting and try to build that way, or should I dump it into advance scouting and coach hiring to try to find DITRs, or should I just focus on the draft, or should I balance two of those plans, or maybe all three)

Everyone please add or take away from this and see if we can all agree on something.  Thanks.

.

6/23/2010 3:17 PM (edited)
And for the opposing viewpoint:

There's nothing wrong with the current system. It's already "something for nothing", and there should be no expectations of anything beyond what is currently in place.

If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
6/23/2010 3:19 PM
Posted by MikeT23 on 6/23/2010 7:49:00 AM (view original):
I blocked apollo a couple of days ago because I thought WifS would be more "fun" without him so I have no idea what he's saying but what if the "useless" DITR were removed for the equation?  The pitcher whose stamina goes from 53 to 98 but splits are still in the 20s?    The LF who suddenly develops some awesome range for a LF but whose hitting numbers stay in the 20s?   Would that make people happy?

In essence, you'd still get the half dozen DITR who could develop into BL players without the guys who never will.  The rest of the teams get no notification.

Now, to play Devil's Advocate to my own suggestion, doesn't that suck the "fun" out of DITR for the 20+ owners who'll get no notifications?  Am I the only user who looks forward to DITR and then, when I open the emails, say "Awww, nuts, all I got was a rock?"   To me, that's still fun.   Maybe I get nothing but knowing all season that I might get something for nothing is "fun". 
I guess this wasn't acceptable to anyone.   Is it because everyone wouldn't receive a future BL player just for being capable of forking out $25 every three months?
6/23/2010 3:30 PM
tecwrg, so you don't think my last post has anything of merit, even though it includes everything you have been saying it needs.  Seems to me you are pretty well entrenched as being opposed to anything I promote on a philosphical level.  In the latest proposal I made concessions and admitted to being off base on some issues.  That is what compromise and concensus building is.  Just for the record, your position is now, "fine as is, nothing needs to change"?  Seems you could have summed up your position about 20 posts ago.
6/23/2010 3:40 PM (edited)
MikeT23, unblock me and actually read the entirety of what I'm writing and you might actually agree with it.  Of course that would require you to pocket your arrogance and put personal feelings aside, which I doubt you are capable of. 

Not that you will see this post...  :
6/23/2010 3:43 PM
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