New Manager Setting to limit PC in blowouts Topic

zbrent716
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Posted by MikeT23 on 10/21/2010 5:28:00 PM (view original):
I look at the game as a game with a 600-sided dice(or whatever).    A good hitter is going to have positive results on 200 sides(or whatever).   Now, if you roll 600 times, it's unlikely that you get exactly 200 positive results.   But you'll always have a 1 in 3 chance of it.   An average hitter is going to have 150 positive sides.  Thus his chances of a positive result is 1 in 4.

Not sure if that answers your question.
I think it sort of does, but just to be absolutely clear - you see each PA as a "roll" in effect, not each game. So, for example, SP A is equally likely to get Batter B out, regardless of whether his team is up 10-0 or down 10-0, right?
10/21/2010 5:32 PM
MikeT23
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Yes, in short, I don't think our little fake players perform better, or worse, based on the score.  

But, to clear up my muddled post a little more, I think I'm doing myself a favor if I get my guy with the 1 in 3 chances of a positive result more opportunities than the 1 in 4 guy.   So, to equate it back to the pitching(and the point of the suggestion), I'm getting more leveraged innings from my better pitcher if he's removed early from games if we're winning big.   Game decided, out and rested.  Starts a day earlier in a yet to be decided game.
10/21/2010 5:38 PM
zbrent716
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Sorry tec, but that isn't relevant to this thread.
10/21/2010 9:33 PM
zbrent716
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Posted by MikeT23 on 10/21/2010 5:38:00 PM (view original):
Yes, in short, I don't think our little fake players perform better, or worse, based on the score.  

But, to clear up my muddled post a little more, I think I'm doing myself a favor if I get my guy with the 1 in 3 chances of a positive result more opportunities than the 1 in 4 guy.   So, to equate it back to the pitching(and the point of the suggestion), I'm getting more leveraged innings from my better pitcher if he's removed early from games if we're winning big.   Game decided, out and rested.  Starts a day earlier in a yet to be decided game.
OK, I think I get where you are coming from, and I think I'm of (essentially) the same mindset.

Here's my question then - isn't the major benefit/impact of having a "mopup man" the precise benefit/impact that you're worried about being abused here?

Unlike in RL, where a pitcher gets pulled because he simply doesn't have "it" in a given day, the SP has the same chance of getting player B out, even if player A just hit a grand slam.

We yank him here in HBD not because he's more likely to give up further runs (we agree, he isn't) but instead because we don't want him out there - whether it be for injury purposes, or for fatigue purposes so he can be moved up in the rotation, or for some other reason. And yet, I've never heard anyone - yourself included - argue against the option of having a mopup man. It's the same rationale & option I'd like to have available to me if I happen to be on the *good* side of a blowout.
10/21/2010 9:37 PM
MikeT23
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The difference is quite simple.   The use of the "mopup man" when your SP is getting blasted is a real life actuality.    The use of a bullpen when your pitcher is tossing a gem in a 9-0 game is simply a by-product of pitch counts.   We have pitch counts.

Both real life situations for blowouts are currently covered in HBD.
10/22/2010 6:22 AM
zbrent716
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Posted by MikeT23 on 10/22/2010 6:22:00 AM (view original):
The difference is quite simple.   The use of the "mopup man" when your SP is getting blasted is a real life actuality.    The use of a bullpen when your pitcher is tossing a gem in a 9-0 game is simply a by-product of pitch counts.   We have pitch counts.

Both real life situations for blowouts are currently covered in HBD.
But the only *impact* of the "mopup man" in HBD is the very reason you are opposed to allowing a SP to come out in blowout wins.

And, as far as the use of the bullpen, I could make a strong argument that the way it is done in RL is not how it *should* be done, and so we shouldn't be strictly bound to it here in WhatIf world.

In case you couldn't tell, I'm not of the Dusty Baker school of thought - in RL or in HBD. Who knows, perhaps pulling Wood or Prior earlier in games that were "decided" might have extended their productive careers as SP.
10/22/2010 12:18 PM
MikeT23
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You know that we pretty much agree on how the game works.   I think where the disagreement lies in how the game is played by us.

When practical, HBD attempts to mirror MLB.  Obviously, there are portions of MLB that don't translate well.   Divisions, playoff teams, salary caps(or lack thereof), etc, etc. are some of those things.  However, what we're discussing here can, and should, mirror MLB as much as possible.   MLB teams go with 5 man rotations.   Seldom do pitchers start on short rest.   The undeniable objective of your suggestion is to get more "important" innings, or at least have the opportunity to do so, from your better pitchers.   MLB teams do not pull their starter when they're up by 12 in the 5th so they can bring him back on 2-3 days rest.  They just don't.  Your suggestion would make that possible.    To me, that's almost the same as saying "I'd like the option to use 10 batters."   It's just not done in MLB.
10/22/2010 12:50 PM
burnsy483
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When reading this thread, all I could think of is - why does anyone want their bullpen being taxed MORE than usual?  At some point of every season (albeit few) I have a situation where I go "f***, i have 2 relievers available next game."  Do I really want to have my pen pitch more than it usually does?  I value pitchers that can pitch 250 innings.  Even if that means I'm at risk of losing him due to injury because he's pitching 7 innings rather than 6.  And if you're throwing a 40 health guy out there every 5th game, maybe you deserve to have him injured every once in a while.

There's more harm than good here, even if you disagree with what I said above.  It can be exploited in the way Mike is describing it.
10/22/2010 1:10 PM (edited)
MikeT23
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I think it would change the way you build a staff.  I don't use mop-up men until after roster expansion.    With this option, I'd look for high stamina/control with OK pitches/splits.    A pitcher that isn't going to beat anyone but won't beat himself.   Assuming the other team would be using rest for their starters, he'd be pitching to their back-ups and making them get hits.
10/22/2010 1:32 PM
zbrent716
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And here again we come back to what seems to be the fundamental disagreement we have as to how HBD should work.

I like the idea of having the option to do things that are *possible* in RL, but are not actually done. The 4-man rotation, for example, is *possible* in RL - indeed, it was the status quo for decades - but it no longer is.

I don't think that is has suddenly become impossible, I just think that RL GMs/managers have become so set in the 5-man rotation that they can't bring themselves to try anything different - even something that has been proven in the past (to say nothing of some of the more extreme things I'd like to see RL managers try).

The 5-man rotation is not a baseball RULE - like the 9-person batting order. And it's only recently become the convention.

For a "WhatIf" game, I'm all for being bound by the RL RULES - but screw RL conventions. And frankly, that's how most owners play the game, even if they do not acknowledge that position.

Most of us use at least one of the following: 1) wholesale defensive replacements; 2) wholesale rest replacements; 3) a defensive slug (and I don't mean Manny Ramirez slug, I mean <10 range guy) at a corner OF spot; 4) a catcher who randomly sticks down fingers because he can't "Call" a game to save his life; etc.

These are all things that are against the RL convention - but they are all "possible".
10/22/2010 1:59 PM
MikeT23
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I can only speak for myself but I already do lots with my pitching staff that doesn't happen in RL.     If my ace gets bombed early, there's a good chance he's pitching on two days rest.  I have no qualms with bouncing guys from SP to LR to SU and back to SP if that's how I need to use them.   Yanking pitchers out of the game when winning big is just another tool that would allow us the opportunity to "do what we want".  

For the most part, I think owners like HBD to somewhat resemble MLB.   That's why people complain when players finish with 108 homers or 173/3 in SB/CS.   It's why owners hate to see 28 win teams or 128 win teams in their world.  We, and I mean the majority of us, want HBD to mirror MLB when practical.   It's just what the majority wants.

10/22/2010 2:08 PM
zbrent716
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Posted by MikeT23 on 10/22/2010 2:08:00 PM (view original):

I can only speak for myself but I already do lots with my pitching staff that doesn't happen in RL.     If my ace gets bombed early, there's a good chance he's pitching on two days rest.  I have no qualms with bouncing guys from SP to LR to SU and back to SP if that's how I need to use them.   Yanking pitchers out of the game when winning big is just another tool that would allow us the opportunity to "do what we want".  

For the most part, I think owners like HBD to somewhat resemble MLB.   That's why people complain when players finish with 108 homers or 173/3 in SB/CS.   It's why owners hate to see 28 win teams or 128 win teams in their world.  We, and I mean the majority of us, want HBD to mirror MLB when practical.   It's just what the majority wants.

In select instances, it's what the majority wants, or at least says it wants.

In reality though, the vast majority - including you and I - intentionally do things that make it so HBD doesn't mirror MLB, even when it is practical for us to do so.

Everyone *could* run a strict 5-man rotation. Everyone *could* make - at most - 1 defensive sub, if that. Everyone *could* - when a SP gets bombed early - have a swingman guy go 4-5 innings then bring in another RP or two to finish a game instead of having a guy throw the final 7 innings to save the pen.

But we don't. And it's not logically consistent to demand that we be wed to some RL conventions (not rules) and not others.
10/22/2010 2:14 PM
zbrent716
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And don't get me started on the 173/3 SB guy, since you're heading the camp that argues - "well, team averages end up in line, so the SB portion of the engine doesn't need an overhaul."

That is an example of something that is not really *possible* in RL, IMO. And if it is *possible*, it certainly isn't something that should happen at nearly the frequency it does in HBD, even with DH at C.
10/22/2010 2:16 PM
MikeT23
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We have to be wed to some RL rules/conventions and not others.   It's always starts, and could well end, with the budget.    No budget or varied budgets would ruin the game.   Some things just have to be and some things shouldn't be.   Giving us, and I include owners like us, another tool to "bend" the similarities to MLB isn't always a good thing.

And you have my argument wrong.   I'm against individual basestealing settings without a complete SB engine overhaul.   And, I think, the people screaming for individual settings would end up where they are now with IBS and an engine overhaul.  That 173/3 guy becomes 116/60.  So his setting is changed and he becomes 58/24 and the team steals at a 72% success rate just like they do now.

10/22/2010 2:32 PM
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New Manager Setting to limit PC in blowouts Topic
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