Posted by pstrnutbag44 on 1/6/2011 3:30:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 1/6/2011 3:23:00 PM (view original):
We're not the manager.  We have manager settings.  You know, like baserunning settings.  

Clearly we have manager settings, as the teams are supposed to be run as we would like them to be. Jeez. You are beginning your lame attempt at splitting hairs and grasping at straws. Unless you actually have something of substance to add that is relevant, and not some far-fetched reach or twist, I don't think your able to continue the actual debate at hand properly.

The do run as most of us would like them to.   When you build your own game, shoot me the link.   Maybe I'll like your game better. 

By the way, you had me at "I don't think".  It's apparent that you do not.   But that doesn't stop you from posting.

Posted by pstrnutbag44 on 1/6/2011 3:20:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tecwrg on 1/6/2011 3:14:00 PM (view original):

Posted by mhulshult on 1/6/2011 2:48:00 PM (view original):
I think part of nutbag's point is that you can live with your speedster getting thrown out in the 8th down by 1, because he had a pretty good shot at making it.  You're not comfortable with your "Posada" getting thrown out in that situation, because he shouldn't have gone anyway.

OK.  I understand that. 

But doing something like that comes at a cost.  If you don't let Posada attempt to steal in the 8th when you're down by 1, then you're also not letting him attempt steal in the 3rd when you're up by 3.  In short, you're not going to let him attempt to steal ever.  And that's just not realistic, because as we can see, even slugs attempt the occasional steal in MLB.

If you look at the description of the "Base Stealing" managerial settiing, there is a reference to "when conditions are favorable".  I suppose a fair question to WIS would be about what exactly does that mean?  Does it only refer to the matchup of baserunner versus catcher, or does it also take game situation (inning, score, ahead/trailing, etc.) into account? 

Should there be a separate set of "late inning/close game" settings on the managerial settings page where you can define the inning, score, winning/losing, etc. for a deviation form your "standard" settings?

This part: "But doing something like that comes at a cost.  If you don't let Posada attempt to steal in the 8th when you're down by 1, then you're also not letting him attempt steal in the 3rd when you're up by 3.  In short, you're not going to let him attempt to steal ever.  And that's just not realistic, because as we can see, even slugs attempt the occasional steal in MLB."
 

Strange. I guess this depends on your version of reality/realistic. If I were manager of my team, I would never allow Posada/Giambi-type to take more than a one-step lead. THAT is realistic. I KNOW he isn't doing me favors with his lack of baserunning skill. My speedster gets thrown out more often, no problem. Catchers/Pitchers are more aware of potential basestealers when they know they steal at an incredibly high rate. They would be looking for this more, pitch-outs would be called more often, etc. all which more than likely lead to them being CS more, and in situations that more realisticly mirror an actual baseball game that I would manage....which is the point of the game, right?

So you're saying that you would never let a Posada-type even attempt a steal in your world. 

Yet in real life, he's attempted 2.8 steals a season for his career (not counting '95/'96 when he appeared in only 9 games).  And he's been successful 20 times (51%), and has been 10 out of 11 (91%) over the past six seasons. 

Granted, those are not scary numbers.  Catchers don't crap their pants when Posada is two steps off the bag.  But it just seems strange to want to introduce a change that eliminates this altogether.  As you say: isn't the point to realistically mirror an actual baseball game?

Posted by MikeT23 on 1/6/2011 3:32:00 PM (view original):
By the way, you had me at "I don't think".  It's apparent that you do not.   But that doesn't stop you from posting.

No sweat, Boss. Obviously I'm thinking about SOMETHING to have thought about the whole idea of basestealing. Continue to show us your wisdom, old-timer. You've not quite hit the mark yet, but I'm sure after a few more twists, turns, reaches, personal insults, etc. you'll get there. ;-)

Posted by tecwrg on 1/6/2011 3:35:00 PM (view original):

Posted by pstrnutbag44 on 1/6/2011 3:20:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tecwrg on 1/6/2011 3:14:00 PM (view original):

Posted by mhulshult on 1/6/2011 2:48:00 PM (view original):
I think part of nutbag's point is that you can live with your speedster getting thrown out in the 8th down by 1, because he had a pretty good shot at making it.  You're not comfortable with your "Posada" getting thrown out in that situation, because he shouldn't have gone anyway.

OK.  I understand that. 

But doing something like that comes at a cost.  If you don't let Posada attempt to steal in the 8th when you're down by 1, then you're also not letting him attempt steal in the 3rd when you're up by 3.  In short, you're not going to let him attempt to steal ever.  And that's just not realistic, because as we can see, even slugs attempt the occasional steal in MLB.

If you look at the description of the "Base Stealing" managerial settiing, there is a reference to "when conditions are favorable".  I suppose a fair question to WIS would be about what exactly does that mean?  Does it only refer to the matchup of baserunner versus catcher, or does it also take game situation (inning, score, ahead/trailing, etc.) into account? 

Should there be a separate set of "late inning/close game" settings on the managerial settings page where you can define the inning, score, winning/losing, etc. for a deviation form your "standard" settings?

This part: "But doing something like that comes at a cost.  If you don't let Posada attempt to steal in the 8th when you're down by 1, then you're also not letting him attempt steal in the 3rd when you're up by 3.  In short, you're not going to let him attempt to steal ever.  And that's just not realistic, because as we can see, even slugs attempt the occasional steal in MLB."
 

Strange. I guess this depends on your version of reality/realistic. If I were manager of my team, I would never allow Posada/Giambi-type to take more than a one-step lead. THAT is realistic. I KNOW he isn't doing me favors with his lack of baserunning skill. My speedster gets thrown out more often, no problem. Catchers/Pitchers are more aware of potential basestealers when they know they steal at an incredibly high rate. They would be looking for this more, pitch-outs would be called more often, etc. all which more than likely lead to them being CS more, and in situations that more realisticly mirror an actual baseball game that I would manage....which is the point of the game, right?

So you're saying that you would never let a Posada-type even attempt a steal in your world. 

Yet in real life, he's attempted 2.8 steals a season for his career (not counting '95/'96 when he appeared in only 9 games).  And he's been successful 20 times (51%), and has been 10 out of 11 (91%) over the past six seasons. 

Granted, those are not scary numbers.  Catchers don't crap their pants when Posada is two steps off the bag.  But it just seems strange to want to introduce a change that eliminates this altogether.  As you say: isn't the point to realistically mirror an actual baseball game?

Yes. Exactly what I am saying. Not on my TEAM, the one in which I set the Manager Settings or manage or whatever, not sure where you got world (another stretch). That would be me running my team how I want, no?

Do you think you control which pitcher enters the game after the SP?

Posted by MikeT23 on 1/6/2011 3:17:00 PM (view original):

Posted by pstrnutbag44 on 1/6/2011 2:21:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 1/6/2011 1:57:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 1/6/2011 9:30:00 AM (view original):
That's the issue, mhul.   Currently, there isn't a big "problem".    You get a few oddball results but, for the most part, it works pretty well.    So what's being asked for a is a MAJOR overhaul of the system for a minor tweak in results.    It makes very little sense from a business standpoint. 

I'll refer back to this for anyone who thinks we have to have a fix.

Businesses don't do major overhauls to products for a minor tweak in results.  GM will not recall every engine built between 2005-2010 because they've discovered that the design is causing their customers to get .0042 MPG less than they should.

Extremely poor comparison. By this logic, there should never be, nor should there ever have been, an update to HBD. This is a game that we all know requires constant tinkering to perfect. Hence updates. I think a possible step in the right direction was mentioned above, and it certainly didn't sound like a MAJOR overhaul. Slightly tinkering with the logic for Pickoffs. Sounds pretty minor to me. Progress doesn't have to be so scary.

I think it's a very apt comparison.   There is a minor "problem", and I dropped some quotes around problem because many of us don't even think it's a problem, that a few people are complaining about.    The car runs just fine.   Maybe it needs one new sparkplug.   You don't overhaul the engine to make granny on the corner happy.   You just hope she goes away because the vast majority of the people don't care.

You gotta love his analogies.

Posted by deathinahole on 1/6/2011 1:40:00 PM (view original):
The only tweak I would do is to correct the pickoff logic.

If corrected, the 85/2 guy becomes 85/8 to 85/10. Jumbo never gets picked off, because he is already touching 1st.

The pick off logic seems to follow the SB success logic. Incorrect.

I have spoken.

I'm going to add one more thing; I'd also improve fuel efficiency by a half litre per 100 kilometers.

I find it funny because pnutbag wants control over SB that he doesn't have in any other facet of the game. 

Posted by mhulshult on 1/6/2011 9:32:00 AM (view original):
What's also not being mentioned (though has come up in past discussions) is that HBD owners put much less emphasis on arm strength and accuracy in catchers compared to MLB teams.

I often look, and I rarely see a catcher with 80+ arm stregnth and accuracy.  You just don't find catchers who can really throw guys out, and if they can, they couldn't hit a beachball. 

It's math. If you have a defensive catcher that throws out 35% of the runners and shaves half a point in ERA through pitch calling (which, by the way, is 81 runs a season), how well does he have to hit?

Here's some math for ya':

1713-2013 (0.460)

Let me say that I'd welcome the suggested change if it happened, but it does work well enough as it sits today.

That being said, if you're going to compare it to how pitching is currently set up, you have to consider a few other things.  We have control over whether or not a pitcher is allowed to come into the game at all.  We are able to say how early they're able to come in, for how many pitches they can stay in, how long we want to stick with them when they get in trouble, and we can rank them to specify an order of preference for who we would like to come in when a reliever is needed.  Settings are VERY individualized for pitchers.

If individual settings were added for baserunning, it would be equivalent to having the control we have now with pitchers.  We don't control which pitches they throw (I know, ab's are not done pitch-by-pitch), but we do control quite a bit.  Just like we wouldn't have control of specifically when our baserunner attempts a stolen base, but we would be able to guide the logic of how often he goes and how aggressive he is.  A little of that is already built in (something about favorable conditions), but individualized control would actually get it closer to the functionality we have with pitching.

EDIT:  What we have for baserunning now would be like setting a pull rating for your entire pitching staff.  You would be saying, "Let me guys try to get out of trouble because, in general, I have a pretty good pitching staff."

Posted by jimmystick on 1/6/2011 8:42:00 PM (view original):

Posted by mhulshult on 1/6/2011 9:32:00 AM (view original):
What's also not being mentioned (though has come up in past discussions) is that HBD owners put much less emphasis on arm strength and accuracy in catchers compared to MLB teams.

I often look, and I rarely see a catcher with 80+ arm stregnth and accuracy.  You just don't find catchers who can really throw guys out, and if they can, they couldn't hit a beachball. 

"Couldn't hit a baseball" describes many MLB catchers.

I'll also say that many owners using DH's as catchers shouldn't be a reason to adjust the base running logic.  If owners choose to use noodle arms for catchers, 200 sb seasons may be a result if we had individualized ratings.  And I'm not saying that's a bad thing.  There should be a penalty for having a crappy catcher behind the plate.

Posted by mhulshult on 1/7/2011 9:01:00 AM (view original):
Let me say that I'd welcome the suggested change if it happened, but it does work well enough as it sits today.

That being said, if you're going to compare it to how pitching is currently set up, you have to consider a few other things.  We have control over whether or not a pitcher is allowed to come into the game at all.  We are able to say how early they're able to come in, for how many pitches they can stay in, how long we want to stick with them when they get in trouble, and we can rank them to specify an order of preference for who we would like to come in when a reliever is needed.  Settings are VERY individualized for pitchers.

If individual settings were added for baserunning, it would be equivalent to having the control we have now with pitchers.  We don't control which pitches they throw (I know, ab's are not done pitch-by-pitch), but we do control quite a bit.  Just like we wouldn't have control of specifically when our baserunner attempts a stolen base, but we would be able to guide the logic of how often he goes and how aggressive he is.  A little of that is already built in (something about favorable conditions), but individualized control would actually get it closer to the functionality we have with pitching.

EDIT:  What we have for baserunning now would be like setting a pull rating for your entire pitching staff.  You would be saying, "Let me guys try to get out of trouble because, in general, I have a pretty good pitching staff."

I can't begin to describe how wrong I think you are.

You can rest pitchers.   That doesn't ensure they won't pitch.
You can set pitchers as SP.  That doesn't ensure they won't relieve.
You can set pitchers to throw 15-20 pitches in the 9th.   That doesn't ensure they will throw 15-20 pitches or that they will pitch in the 9th. 
You can set pitchers to stay in through trouble or get relieved when trouble comes.   But that doesn't ensure that either will happen when you want it.

What you're(and I'm just generalizing) asking for is the ability to say "This particular runner will never attempt a steal.   This other runner will still whenever he gets a chance."

You don't have that kind of control in this game.    You set line-ups.  You set rotations.  And you make suggestions on what to do when the line-up/pitching changes via the setting page.