I am wondering how much of an effect a pitcher's vL, vR, and to a lesser extent, P1 and P2 have on DER.

Posted by winepimp on 12/29/2010 6:06:00 PM (view original):

Posted by cbriese on 12/29/2010 4:38:00 PM (view original):
Yeah, I know. Too long.

i'm more concerned with the disturbing amount of free time you have......just sayin

Heh. Sick day. The body feel likes crap, but the mind is all, "c'mon do something interesting...".

When, by the way, is 10 post day?

Posted by robusk on 12/29/2010 7:17:00 PM (view original):

Posted by cbriese on 12/29/2010 5:30:00 PM (view original):

Posted by vandydave on 12/29/2010 5:12:00 PM (view original):
my KC team is the one franchise i have where my defense is probably at least average, i have some SSish players playing other positions

But you have nearly twice as many (-) plays as plus plays, and yet you still have a better DER than b0t's Honolulu team or moy's St. Louis team. Both of those play very solid defense.

According to moy, errors are the only defensive stat worth a damn.

Well, Duh!

Posted by cbriese on 12/29/2010 7:45:00 PM (view original):
I am wondering how much of an effect a pitcher's vL, vR, and to a lesser extent, P1 and P2 have on DER.

Is there a metric that removes pitching from the equation?

Posted by cbriese on 12/29/2010 7:47:00 PM (view original):

Posted by winepimp on 12/29/2010 6:06:00 PM (view original):

Posted by cbriese on 12/29/2010 4:38:00 PM (view original):
Yeah, I know. Too long.

i'm more concerned with the disturbing amount of free time you have......just sayin

Heh. Sick day. The body feel likes crap, but the mind is all, "c'mon do something interesting...".

Best way to spend sick days.

Here come the slores

Posted by robusk on 12/29/2010 7:17:00 PM (view original):

Posted by cbriese on 12/29/2010 5:30:00 PM (view original):

Posted by vandydave on 12/29/2010 5:12:00 PM (view original):
my KC team is the one franchise i have where my defense is probably at least average, i have some SSish players playing other positions

But you have nearly twice as many (-) plays as plus plays, and yet you still have a better DER than b0t's Honolulu team or moy's St. Louis team. Both of those play very solid defense.

According to moy, errors are the only defensive stat worth a damn.

Not agreeing with that, but on the flip side it seems like briese and others act as if +/- is the biggest thing defensively.

Posted by robusk on 12/29/2010 8:52:00 PM (view original):

Posted by cbriese on 12/29/2010 7:45:00 PM (view original):
I am wondering how much of an effect a pitcher's vL, vR, and to a lesser extent, P1 and P2 have on DER.

Is there a metric that removes pitching from the equation?

Yeah, well, we're never going to be able to have zone ratings or UZRs to tell. +/- is supposed to be helpful there, although there doesn't seem to be a really good correlation between +/- and DER in HBD. DER simply measure what percentages of balls in play were turned into outs. You would think that all the defensive ratings would go into that metric. 

But when you see VD's team, with nearly twice as many minus plays as plus plays, in the upper third of DER, you realize that in HBD other factors must enter into it. Obviously, park factors have to be considered. But there has to be a pitching component also, to determine if the batter ball was likely to be a pop up, a dribbler to second, or a line drive in the gap. That's where I think vL and vR factor in. 

Plus gb/fb...ideally velocity, too, but I'm guessing that doesn't make the cut.

Posted by vandydave on 12/29/2010 10:02:00 PM (view original):

Posted by robusk on 12/29/2010 7:17:00 PM (view original):

Posted by cbriese on 12/29/2010 5:30:00 PM (view original):

Posted by vandydave on 12/29/2010 5:12:00 PM (view original):
my KC team is the one franchise i have where my defense is probably at least average, i have some SSish players playing other positions

But you have nearly twice as many (-) plays as plus plays, and yet you still have a better DER than b0t's Honolulu team or moy's St. Louis team. Both of those play very solid defense.

According to moy, errors are the only defensive stat worth a damn.

Not agreeing with that, but on the flip side it seems like briese and others act as if +/- is the biggest thing defensively.

Unfortunately, there is not much else WIS publishes that can tell us anything useful. There are DPs, but that is influenced strongly by the number of opposing players that reach base, and in smaller part by whether you have a fly ball or ground ball pitcher. Catcher's stats are solid, but I have no easy way to determine team OF assists (which I think are not well implemented anyway). So you are left with +/- and errors.

Posted by cbriese on 12/29/2010 10:42:00 PM (view original):

Posted by robusk on 12/29/2010 8:52:00 PM (view original):

Posted by cbriese on 12/29/2010 7:45:00 PM (view original):
I am wondering how much of an effect a pitcher's vL, vR, and to a lesser extent, P1 and P2 have on DER.

Is there a metric that removes pitching from the equation?

Yeah, well, we're never going to be able to have zone ratings or UZRs to tell. +/- is supposed to be helpful there, although there doesn't seem to be a really good correlation between +/- and DER in HBD. DER simply measure what percentages of balls in play were turned into outs. You would think that all the defensive ratings would go into that metric. 

But when you see VD's team, with nearly twice as many minus plays as plus plays, in the upper third of DER, you realize that in HBD other factors must enter into it. Obviously, park factors have to be considered. But there has to be a pitching component also, to determine if the batter ball was likely to be a pop up, a dribbler to second, or a line drive in the gap. That's where I think vL and vR factor in. 

Dang man.  I am a little drunk but I don't feel as smart as you.  You need to be hired immediately.  I need a new glitch.

Posted by rlahann on 12/29/2010 10:53:00 PM (view original):
Plus gb/fb...ideally velocity, too, but I'm guessing that doesn't make the cut.

Velocity is awesome.

Honestly, HBD is becoming too much like SLB.  Everyone wants to make the game simpler and all that does is cater to lazy people.

I like it being difficult. I just want to make sure it's accurate.

A couple of years ago I submitted a ticket to WIS asking which coach had the greatest effect upon the development of a catcher's PC. They said the fielding coach did. I asked them to double check, and they said, "yep, it's the fielding coach". There are some things that just aren't right.

In HR this season my team ended up with 156 (+) plays and 4 (-) plays. That 152 play delta was twice as much as any other team had. Yet my DER is less than anton's and just slightly better than a handful of other teams'. I fear that, in many way, +/- is purely cosmetic.