Posted by malone9975 on 1/9/2011 3:00:00 AM (view original):
Posted by nanu on 1/8/2011 2:20:00 PM (view original):
thank you anton for your posts in this thread. i only got to page 2 before i couldn't take much more of the back and forth - not yours, so much, but swamps.
Now Swamp, and I am being baldly general only because you started it...
The objection from the left is that the right takes an issue, decides its too hard and complicated to handle with any sort of complicated answer because their brain hurts, and proceed to 'solve' the problem with the bluntest instrument they can find. This is comforting for everyone who believes, because it is easier, that the world really isn;t all that complicated.
in the rightest answer to gun violence, the answer is more guns.
in the leftist answer, there's a recognition of underlying root problems and an attempt to correct them.
Clearly one answer is easier, and most likely, cheaper. But that doesn't make it effective. What the right always fails to mention in the small government diatribe is you get what you pay for.
And, maybe the left is all starry-eyed and full of hubris for thinking they can solve all the issues that, combined, lead to problems with gun violence in America. but in my opinion, (and I know it is not yours), there is great value in taking on difficult challenges, no matter how complicated and tough, and working to surmount them.
I know I am new to this conversation, but how in the name of CNN is this any kind of reasoning.
To quote this "in the leftist answer, there's a recognition of underlying root problems and an attempt to correct them."
No that is not the leftist answer...the leftist answer is to wave the finger of blame and call someone stupid.
Lets take a look at some great examples:
President Bush...lampooned for being stupid, because stupidity is how you get through Yale, make 300 Mil off of a baseball team, and become successful in business. Oh and follow that up with having what one could consider to be the hardest presidency in history, and while he didn't do the best at somethings he did well with other areas and, like I said, a very difficult presidency. Yeah but he stuck his head in the sand.
How about all of the lefties complaining about how awful "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" was? Who passed that into law...Clinton. It was one of the first things he did, predating the republican house and congress that came to power in 1995.
Sarah Palin. Now that is a real idiot. She only mobilized a populace to help vote much of the conservative opposition out of power in a defeat of historic proportions. She did this while liberals took potshots at her, her family (including her daughter that just had a child, and child with down syndrome), and her supporters (which is the very definition of stupid....never attack the supporters of a political party - it shows who you really are).
This list could go on and on....the cries of the stupidity of people like Dan Quayle, Gerald Ford (who was attacked because of his wife's substance abuse problems), Bob Dole, and Newt Gingrich to name a few. It seems eerily similar to what the Nazi's did to Poland when they killed off the most intelligent and then started making "Polock jokes" to further push the idea that Poles were stupid.
Look, maybe you are an idealist and have the best of intentions personally, but the left is not "starry-eyed and full of hubris." The left is not trying to fix anything, but rather they are trying, and succeeding quite well, in creating dependancy by creating a huge set of entitlements so the populace is endebted to them and thusly votes them into office over, and over again. Point in case is Harry Reid...why would anyone vote him back into office? His state has been crushed under his watch...what did he do to earn another term?
So in respect to gun violence the conservative says, "It is part of the Bill of Rights, and we a duty bound to protect the constitution." People have killed people with bombs, and they are already illegal so what makes us think that voiding the 2nd Amendment is the answer? It is an extraordinarily Pollyanna view to think that will solve the problem.
A liberal leaning person wants to take away the gun. That is the easy way out, but what is next. Do we take away contractors tools like saws, hammers, and air compressor based tools because many people have been killed with those items. Messed up humans do messed up things. The Shadow used to say "Who Knows What Evil Lurks in the Hearts of Men?" Sociopaths do sociopathic things with or without a gun. Maybe we should outlaw food because of all of the people that die from heart disease?
Personal responsibility is a better overall idea, and that is something that a liberal doesn't stand for. A liberal needs control, and if they can't legislate it in our lives they lose control.
So one answer is easier...legislate it away.
One answer is harder...give people the responsibility and risk losing control.
It is about risk vs. reward. Risk losing control, but the reward is people being empowered to live their lives on their terms. Sometimes bad things will happen and the violators will have to be punished, but the fabric of the constitution stays intact.
One thing we can all agree on is what happened in Arizona is something none of us want to see, and we are deeply saddened by it. We hope the best for everyone in this horrific situation. While we can have this discourse about political dissonance, it is done from the comfort of our homes, and we do still live in the best place on Earth.
Malone I agree entirely with your last paragraph. I am befuddled by the rest.
What does commentary on George Bush the first have to do with my post? In politics, and it is distasteful on all sides, people say crap things about politicians. Yes, republicans are dumb, and liberals are overeducated effete pussjobs. Those are the general taglines that go along with all of it. I was trying to avoid that and get to the basic philosophy of government. Republicans believe in small government and easy 'solutions'. Democrats believe in a more powerful government that has the capacity to attempt more difficult things. I didn't think that was in dispute.
Nobody here said void the second amendment. Nobody here said take away all the guns. That's foolish and a distortion of the view of the left, even those who are more excessive and hardcore about gun regulation. What the left says is "first, restrict access to the weapons that citizens do not need (such as bombs, or would you like those to be legal too?), second, what are the root causes of gun violence? let's identify those, and work on fixing them.' that leads to a longer, more complicated conversation. I know republicans that do the same...but they're not willing the pay for the complex solution. Sometimes I interpret that as a failure of intellectual capacity, which is probably the genesis of those unfair characterizations you pointed out.
Yes, I'm aware of the holiness of the constitution. I'm also a history major who is aware that throughout civilization, words have been put on paper and bound civilizations to this endless debate of "exactly as written" or "as interpreted". The civilizations that fail to interpret with some flexibility wind up failed civilizations. Why? Because **** changes. The Egyptian medical texts did not change for several thousand years. The Egyptians began as the preeminent medical authority on the planet. They ended up as a laughingstock of other, newer civilizations that had learned new technologies and treatments. The Egyptians refused to use them because the medical texts they knew, unedited since time immemorial, disagreed. That story is old but never-changing. Another reason why liberals think conservatives are dumb. You lack the flexibility to live in today. You're still living in tomorrow. You're whispering religious gibberish over an ill child and we're using stem cells to save them. Obviously, these are all horrible generalizations. And there's many gradients of truth sprinkled throughout them. But you get the idea.
Now, there's obviously value to both sides. People ought to have the right to have guns in a safe manner. People ought not to have guns in an unsafe manner. And while you're preaching personal responsibility, someone who lacks the capacity to be so responsible is loading up a semi-automatic and, in this case, aiming it at a congresswoman. To you, the ends justify the means. To me, those deaths in Tucson are not worth unregulated gun ownership and a blind defense of the constitution. Your response is he should be taught to be more responsible. To me, his mental illness should have been treated. Either way, you are right that we're both agreed it never should have got to where it did.