Another Tragedy Caused by an Armed Citizen Topic

MikeT23
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I did.  I didn't say "that's why the world isn't populated with murderous heathens."   You're talking nature/nurture and I don't believe we're murderers who have been conditioned to not murder.   Convincing people not to murder one another isn't like housetraining a dog.

I guess you missed this part:  "Whether it's genetics or conditioning, people aren't swayed away from committing murder because of a law, they don't do it because they're not capable."

1/26/2011 2:56 PM
vandydave
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So basically your argument boils down to you alone understanding human nature better than anyone else. Solid.
1/26/2011 3:11 PM
MikeT23
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But, truthfully, one's place in society, his current enviroment, certainly plays a role in what they're capable of doing.  Using a gangbanger as an example, he might be encouraged or required to commit a murder.   When he completes the task, he may be applauded for it.   Being accepted, or even lauded, for doing something makes it easier.    Of course, not everyone is capable of being a gangbanger.   Because, if we were, who wouldn't chose getting wasted and banging 'hos over the 9-5 work day?  Which, of course, brings me back to my original point. 

Laws are not what stops murders from being committed.   Some people can do it, and will if the opportunity presents itself, and some cannot.  The law doesn't change that fact.
1/26/2011 3:14 PM
MikeT23
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If you think everyone, or even the majority of us, could commit a murder, my understanding of human nature far exceeds your understanding. 

Try to start a fight without physically touching anyone.    Human nature will tell them "Avoid this" and they'll only fight back to defend themselves.   If they can walk away, they will.   Is that person capable of murder?  Of course not.

1/26/2011 3:17 PM
MikeT23
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Posted by MikeT23 on 1/24/2011 9:04:00 PM (view original):
You do realize that the vast majority of murders are not pre-meditated, right?    And, those who commit pre-meditated murders do know that it's illegal, right?

So, if you agree with these two simple facts, how many murders do you think aren't committed because it's illegal?
My first post in this thread.   It was in response to this:

"Wait, what? So you don't think murder being illegal has reduced homicides?"
1/26/2011 3:21 PM
vandydave
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Posted by MikeT23 on 1/26/2011 3:17:00 PM (view original):

If you think everyone, or even the majority of us, could commit a murder, my understanding of human nature far exceeds your understanding. 

Try to start a fight without physically touching anyone.    Human nature will tell them "Avoid this" and they'll only fight back to defend themselves.   If they can walk away, they will.   Is that person capable of murder?  Of course not.

Sure I think the majority of us " could" kill someone and are "capable". That doesn't mean they will nor will be put in circumstances where they feel it is necessary or required, whether for self-gain or self-preservation. But that doesn't change the fact that they could and are capable, especially with readily available means for making killing easy, such as a gun.
1/26/2011 3:42 PM
creilmann
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Posted by MikeT23 on 1/26/2011 3:14:00 PM (view original):
But, truthfully, one's place in society, his current enviroment, certainly plays a role in what they're capable of doing.  Using a gangbanger as an example, he might be encouraged or required to commit a murder.   When he completes the task, he may be applauded for it.   Being accepted, or even lauded, for doing something makes it easier.    Of course, not everyone is capable of being a gangbanger.   Because, if we were, who wouldn't chose getting wasted and banging 'hos over the 9-5 work day?  Which, of course, brings me back to my original point. 

Laws are not what stops murders from being committed.   Some people can do it, and will if the opportunity presents itself, and some cannot.  The law doesn't change that fact.
As was said before, nobody has suggested that everyone would turn into ravenous murderers.  My examples do not express that.  Your taking these comments and running them to the extreme in an attempt to discredit others,  probably because you've realized that your argument is quite foolish.  Making murder legal would absolutely push some people, whom otherwise would not commit such an act, to do so or have someone do it for them.  Whether out of greed, jealousy, desperation, whatever.  Some people would find a way to justify such action if there were no consequences.  THAT is human nature and if you do not realize that then you are delusional. 
1/26/2011 3:43 PM
MikeT23
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Posted by vandydave on 1/26/2011 3:42:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 1/26/2011 3:17:00 PM (view original):

If you think everyone, or even the majority of us, could commit a murder, my understanding of human nature far exceeds your understanding. 

Try to start a fight without physically touching anyone.    Human nature will tell them "Avoid this" and they'll only fight back to defend themselves.   If they can walk away, they will.   Is that person capable of murder?  Of course not.

Sure I think the majority of us " could" kill someone and are "capable". That doesn't mean they will nor will be put in circumstances where they feel it is necessary or required, whether for self-gain or self-preservation. But that doesn't change the fact that they could and are capable, especially with readily available means for making killing easy, such as a gun.
Self-preservation isn't murder.   The topic is "murder".   Look it up.

And, by the way, it's ridiculous to think the majority of us could kill someone intentionally.    I think the majority runs from a fight.    
1/26/2011 4:10 PM
MikeT23
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Posted by creilmann on 1/26/2011 3:45:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 1/26/2011 3:14:00 PM (view original):
But, truthfully, one's place in society, his current enviroment, certainly plays a role in what they're capable of doing.  Using a gangbanger as an example, he might be encouraged or required to commit a murder.   When he completes the task, he may be applauded for it.   Being accepted, or even lauded, for doing something makes it easier.    Of course, not everyone is capable of being a gangbanger.   Because, if we were, who wouldn't chose getting wasted and banging 'hos over the 9-5 work day?  Which, of course, brings me back to my original point. 

Laws are not what stops murders from being committed.   Some people can do it, and will if the opportunity presents itself, and some cannot.  The law doesn't change that fact.
As was said before, nobody has suggested that everyone would turn into ravenous murderers.  My examples do not express that.  Your taking these comments and running them to the extreme in an attempt to discredit others,  probably because you've realized that your argument is quite foolish.  Making murder legal would absolutely push some people, whom otherwise would not commit such an act, to do so or have someone do it for them.  Whether out of greed, jealousy, desperation, whatever.  Some people would find a way to justify such action if there were no consequences.  THAT is human nature and if you do not realize that then you are delusional. 
Read your examples and get back to me.   I'll just assume you were stoned when you posted them. 
1/26/2011 4:11 PM
vandydave
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Posted by MikeT23 on 1/26/2011 4:10:00 PM (view original):
Posted by vandydave on 1/26/2011 3:42:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 1/26/2011 3:17:00 PM (view original):

If you think everyone, or even the majority of us, could commit a murder, my understanding of human nature far exceeds your understanding. 

Try to start a fight without physically touching anyone.    Human nature will tell them "Avoid this" and they'll only fight back to defend themselves.   If they can walk away, they will.   Is that person capable of murder?  Of course not.

Sure I think the majority of us " could" kill someone and are "capable". That doesn't mean they will nor will be put in circumstances where they feel it is necessary or required, whether for self-gain or self-preservation. But that doesn't change the fact that they could and are capable, especially with readily available means for making killing easy, such as a gun.
Self-preservation isn't murder.   The topic is "murder".   Look it up.

And, by the way, it's ridiculous to think the majority of us could kill someone intentionally.    I think the majority runs from a fight.    
"I think the majority"....thats all your argument is based upon, your pre-suppositions about human nature.

People willingly and freely do things that are legal if it benefits them in some way.
1/26/2011 4:16 PM
genghisxcon
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say what you will about uncleal, at least he wasn't condescending.
1/26/2011 4:18 PM
creilmann
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Posted by MikeT23 on 1/26/2011 4:11:00 PM (view original):
Posted by creilmann on 1/26/2011 3:45:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 1/26/2011 3:14:00 PM (view original):
But, truthfully, one's place in society, his current enviroment, certainly plays a role in what they're capable of doing.  Using a gangbanger as an example, he might be encouraged or required to commit a murder.   When he completes the task, he may be applauded for it.   Being accepted, or even lauded, for doing something makes it easier.    Of course, not everyone is capable of being a gangbanger.   Because, if we were, who wouldn't chose getting wasted and banging 'hos over the 9-5 work day?  Which, of course, brings me back to my original point. 

Laws are not what stops murders from being committed.   Some people can do it, and will if the opportunity presents itself, and some cannot.  The law doesn't change that fact.
As was said before, nobody has suggested that everyone would turn into ravenous murderers.  My examples do not express that.  Your taking these comments and running them to the extreme in an attempt to discredit others,  probably because you've realized that your argument is quite foolish.  Making murder legal would absolutely push some people, whom otherwise would not commit such an act, to do so or have someone do it for them.  Whether out of greed, jealousy, desperation, whatever.  Some people would find a way to justify such action if there were no consequences.  THAT is human nature and if you do not realize that then you are delusional. 
Read your examples and get back to me.   I'll just assume you were stoned when you posted them. 
Oh, I know exactly what I wrote.  I stated that the murder rate would absolutely rise if killing were legal.  I listed situations where killing someone, if legalized, would become an option that some might take to action.  I also listed examples of certain groups of people who would undoubtedly become targets if killing were legal. Nowhere did I say that all or a majority of the American public would choose to kill someone.  That was you, trying to exaggerate an argument to absurdity.  
1/26/2011 4:35 PM
MikeT23
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Posted by vandydave on 1/26/2011 4:16:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 1/26/2011 4:10:00 PM (view original):
Posted by vandydave on 1/26/2011 3:42:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 1/26/2011 3:17:00 PM (view original):

If you think everyone, or even the majority of us, could commit a murder, my understanding of human nature far exceeds your understanding. 

Try to start a fight without physically touching anyone.    Human nature will tell them "Avoid this" and they'll only fight back to defend themselves.   If they can walk away, they will.   Is that person capable of murder?  Of course not.

Sure I think the majority of us " could" kill someone and are "capable". That doesn't mean they will nor will be put in circumstances where they feel it is necessary or required, whether for self-gain or self-preservation. But that doesn't change the fact that they could and are capable, especially with readily available means for making killing easy, such as a gun.
Self-preservation isn't murder.   The topic is "murder".   Look it up.

And, by the way, it's ridiculous to think the majority of us could kill someone intentionally.    I think the majority runs from a fight.    
"I think the majority"....thats all your argument is based upon, your pre-suppositions about human nature.

People willingly and freely do things that are legal if it benefits them in some way.
Murder is not a "thing".   It's actively deciding to take someone's life.    I go back to the sandwich.

Almost everyone would steal a sandwich if they were starving.   Virtually no one would kill the deli clerk to steal the same sandwich if they were starving.

You guys play too many video games or something.
1/26/2011 4:45 PM
MikeT23
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Posted by creilmann on 1/25/2011 2:49:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 1/25/2011 2:29:00 PM (view original):
If 5% of the population is capable of murder, a law isn't going to stop them from doing it.   Again, all crimes aren't created equally.

Yep.  I've had guns pointed at me before, by convicted criminals, and no one has had the balls to pull the trigger.   You know why?  Killing someone isn't as simple as point and squeeze.  
But, of course, none of us would have to pull the trigger.  If murder were legal, the assassin/hitman industry would flourish.  Most of congress would be shot by now, making a run for political office akin to suicide.  Divorce rates would drop to virtually nil, because why pay her half or let her have custody when you can hire Vinnie to off her?  Don't wanna deal with the competing business across the street?  That can be fixed.  IRS stopping by for an audit?  Not any more.  There are millions of situations where hiring an assassin would make one's life much easier if murder were legal.  It would be open season on homosexuals for the religious right as they, of course, would find permission to do so in the Bible.  

The very notion that murder rates would not go up if it were legal is so absurd, that I have to believe that MikeT23 is an alias of Swamphawk22.
In case you forgot.

25% of the married people will die because 50% of marriages end in divorce.   Well, they're just murdered now.
500+ in Congress are dead.  I assume you counted the Senate.   Unless, of course, your definition of most is 51%.
50% of business owners will be killed.   Unless, of course, you don't think everyone has a competitor or 50.
IRS agents are deader than hell.  Unless, of course, the IRS doesn't audit people.
In another post, homosexuals and sexual predators are now on hit lists.

Yep, that's rampant murdering.    Any way you slice it.
1/26/2011 4:50 PM
MikeT23
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And you left out racists who'll undoubtedly kill every minority in sight.    Feuding neighbors will settle scores once and for all.   Bad drivers?   Double dead.   Old lady who's counting out pennies in line in front of you?  Killed instantly.   Cops?  Oh, yeah.     The number of people who would be murdered cannot be counted.   I'm not a fan of kids.   I'd probably kill 2 or 3 of 'em before breakfast.
1/26/2011 4:54 PM
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