Posted by tedco on 4/28/2011 1:50:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 4/28/2011 1:37:00 PM (view original):
CBS/NYT?   Then it was probably just made up.  

It really hasn't.   There are plenty of reasons to bash Obama.  His birthplace doesn't even register.

You're either oblivious or a liar if you really believe that.

And while there are always plenty of reasons to bash any President., the absolute batshit crazy that we're hearing from the right is unprecedented.

Did some lefties call Bush a Nazi? Yes. Did some lefties call Cheney a war criminal? Yes. Were either one of those accusations as widespread on the left as Obama is a foreign Muslim Socialist is on the right? Not even close.  Those were fringe wackos on the left saying those things. Some of the stuff the mainstream right says about Obama is just off the charts.

Posted by antonsirius on 4/28/2011 1:43:00 PM (view original):
padna, and even you too swamp, I'd like an answer to this:

We all agree that the birther attacks are baseless bullshit. Right?

So why are you digging in your heels when I further label it as baseless racist bullshit? I'm not calling you racist. I'm not even calling every person who now harbors "doubts" about Obama's birth as racist, although I think we'd agree there'd be a heavy overlap between racists and birthers. I'm saying that this line of political attack is racist, and was designed specifically to pander to racists.

Why the reflexive pushback?

Posted by MikeT23 on 4/28/2011 1:52:00 PM (view original):

Posted by antonsirius on 4/28/2011 1:43:00 PM (view original):
padna, and even you too swamp, I'd like an answer to this:

We all agree that the birther attacks are baseless bullshit. Right?

So why are you digging in your heels when I further label it as baseless racist bullshit? I'm not calling you racist. I'm not even calling every person who now harbors "doubts" about Obama's birth as racist, although I think we'd agree there'd be a heavy overlap between racists and birthers. I'm saying that this line of political attack is racist, and was designed specifically to pander to racists.

Why the reflexive pushback?

Because calling it RACIST!!!!! is stupid political pandering from the left.

Posted by MikeT23 on 4/28/2011 2:02:00 PM (view original):
1.  I've already explained that creating doubt in the minds of a few is good political business.   There was enough "mystery" surrounding his birthplace to make a case for it.  If there were people thinking "I don't know.  He comes from Chicago politics, he's probably a little sketchy", this could have been something to confirm that belief in their minds.   As I said, no nice little political package for Obama.

2. This isn't RACIST!!!   Which is why it's stupid.    The reflexive pushback, as you call it, is because once you allow something to be labeled RACIST!!!!, you give credibility to those who are doing the labeling.   You can't give that sort of power to idiots. 

Posted by antonsirius on 4/28/2011 1:43:00 PM (view original):
padna, and even you too swamp, I'd like an answer to this:

We all agree that the birther attacks are baseless bullshit. Right?

So why are you digging in your heels when I further label it as baseless racist bullshit? I'm not calling you racist. I'm not even calling every person who now harbors "doubts" about Obama's birth as racist, although I think we'd agree there'd be a heavy overlap between racists and birthers. I'm saying that this line of political attack is racist, and was designed specifically to pander to racists.

Why the reflexive pushback?

I think they are baseless yes.  Do I understand the issue behind it?  Yes.

I understand that you are not calling me racist.  I don't know that I would agree there is a "heavy" overlap between racists and "birthers".  I think that requires more racists than actually exist.

My point has always been that the racism in this argument is an unsupported assertion.  And that this line of political attack is being used because of its expediency.  If Obama was not the son of a Kenyan native, had not spent his youth in Indonesia, and all the other (baseless) reasons for this attack, there would be other things the fringe would be targeting instead.  If you are one charging racism, it's your assertion, and if you do know the thoughts of those who brought it up, you ought to be able to show you know those thoughts.  Otherwise I can just as easily assert that these attacks are based on hatred of his policies and motivated by trying to do anything, however ridiculous, to prevent further implication.

This difference between you and me in this is that I do not claim to know the motivations of the people who designed or support the political attack.  You, and a host of others seem to know without a shred of proof.

I'm reflexive about the racism issue specifically because when people charge it in an unsupported way, they do a disservice to those that are fighting the real thing.

Are there racists in this "birther movement"?  Probably.  Has Obama been the only one to face a "birther" issue?  No.  It wasn't a race issue for Chester Arthur.  Why is it necessarily a race issue for Obama?

Posted by tedco on 4/28/2011 1:56:00 PM (view original):
Attacking anyone on completely wacko, baseless, conspiracy theory driven accusations is never a good political option.

The birther movement has been very bad for the Republicans politically. Keeping this going for a while longer actually would have been to Obama's advantage.

Posted by tedco on 4/28/2011 2:25:00 PM (view original):
So what? Just deleting an inconsequential comment.

As for your supposed "mystery",... you haven't exactly explained how there was any regarding his birthplace, just that there were people who were questioning it. That doesn't make his birthplace a mystery, it makes those people delusional.