A civil discussion between anton and swamp is indeed refreshing.  Both raise good points.

Posted by rcrusso on 5/7/2011 4:58:00 PM (view original):
There is an alternative swamp........kill capitalism! Democracy and capitalism can not co-exist and the sooner we come to terms with that the better. Oh and before you call me a socialist and think you are insulting me, I am one and have never denied the fact so save your outrage for another subject. Oh and by the way, show me where in the constitution it says what economic system we are to live by?

I'm not sure how this is relevant since we do not live in a democracy here in the first place.

But aside from that, capitalism works best because of freedom.  This is not to say that government shouldn't play a role.  They obviously should.  To what degree they should is cause for discussion and debate.

As far as the bubbles and crashes are concerned, that is a necessary part of an economy that is healthy.  Progress, by its very nature, renders certain innovations obsolete.  As new things come along, adjustments need to be made and people need to plan ahead.  Restricting freedom too much results in the lack of innovation, and the lack of risk.  It's risk that generates reward and grows the pie.  It always has.

Perhaps you can make a coherent case for socialism, rc.  I'd like to see it.  What I usually see when I ask for it is a case against capitalism, but nothing that is for whatever alternative is being asserted.

Posted by antonsirius on 5/7/2011 6:57:00 PM (view original):
We've already seen obscene things. It'll take more than minor regulations to stop them from happening again.

Wall Street has already shown what they will do when they are essentially unregulated. The global economy nearly flatlined as a result. They should not be given another chance to finish the job.

So where do we go from here.

I think the idea that the crash was caused by deregulation isnt toally accurate. The way they did the rebundling was almost a new invention. We cannot make anything someone might think of in the future illegal.

Its the same with futures trading. Take it all away and the system collapses. How do we phrase a law that no one can get around.

To paraphrase..."I cannot define economic obscenity, but I know it when I see it".

That's total bullshit, swamp. This has nothing to do with innovation, stifled or otherwise. Lehman and the rest knew full well that they were defrauding people and scamming the system. They knew the mortgages that formed the original basis of the derivatives were crap, and they didn't care -- hell, by the end, it was the traders who were driving the mortgage industry, not the lenders, just so they could have fresh grist for their derivatives mills. They also knew  the derivatives themselves were crap, which is why they were selling them on the one hand and them betting against them through AIG on the other.

And the crash wasn't caused by deregulation, it was facilitated by deregulation. It was caused by greedy, amoral ************* who should be in jail alongside Bernie Madoff.

So we disagree on this. I do not accept that the only possible outcome here was a collapse. The way they were cutting and reselling things could have kept going. And are you saying that a handful of Wall street guys cost some of the richest people in the world billions of dollars intentionally and are still alive?

I ask again what law can you pass that allows for the system to keep functioning and prevents this from happening? How can you prevent the future?

The Kucinich-Reid-Flux Capacitor Bill?

I do not accept that the only possible outcome here was a collapse. The way they were cutting and reselling things could have kept going.

You don't know what you're talking about.

Again the idea that they stole all that money is crazy. Too many people got screwed over. A handful of people made out well and most everyone else got screwed, across the board.

So lets get back on topic.

The NY-26 split that allowed a Democrat to win...Does this signal a problem going forward?

Will the individual freedom that makes the grass roots Tea Party movement so great could create a few of these.

Can the Republicans and the Tea Party form one voting bloc and dominate America or will the free will of the TP create a niche that the Democrats can exploit?

Posted by rcrusso on 5/31/2011 7:20:00 PM (view original):

They would both make a better president than the current occupier of the White House!

swamp can believe anything

Posted by rcrusso on 5/31/2011 9:54:00 PM (view original):
Even you can not really believe that!

So lets go this way...

What about Obama would make you think he would be a good president.

And what about these 2 ladies would make you think they would be a bad president.

Posted by swamphawk22 on 5/31/2011 4:45:00 PM (view original):
So lets get back on topic.

The NY-26 split that allowed a Democrat to win...Does this signal a problem going forward?

Will the individual freedom that makes the grass roots Tea Party movement so great could create a few of these.

Can the Republicans and the Tea Party form one voting bloc and dominate America or will the free will of the TP create a niche that the Democrats can exploit?

You don't know what you're talking about.

So the impact of Tea PArty candidates in the next election is a non-issue to you??

So out of touch!