Posted by MikeT23 on 8/5/2011 3:27:00 PM (view original):
He's just stirring ****.  Pay him no mind.  

Nice one, by the way. Alanis Morissette would be proud.

Posted by antonsirius on 8/8/2011 7:15:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 8/8/2011 4:39:00 PM (view original):
The thing with sales tax is that you get everyone.  Even those making money "under the table".   Drug dealers aren't taxed on profit.  But, if they have to pay 30% sales tax on that new Mercedes, they will be taxed just as much as the construction worker pounding rocks for a living who saves for years for the same car. 

Not if the drug dealer buys his Benz from the chop shop down the street.

Any massive sales tax increase, FAIR or VAT or whatever, is going to prompt a massive expansion of the black market.

Ha ha.... yep.... I'm going to buy toothpaste on the black market. And milk.... I'll probably buy a goat.... or a cow, whichever is cheaper. And then Ill probably go to the banana republic black market for my next pair of work pants too....

Honestly though.... Mega huge blackmarkets are an extreme scenario.

Only new goods are taxed under the fair tax. Its more likely people will resort to re-using goods or that a 30% sales taxes would get people to consume goods wisely and not waste. That's not a bad thing.

The price of gas has gone up from $35 a barrel to $120 and I haven't found the gas black market yet.... only seen a change in consumption behavior.

Posted by antonsirius on 8/8/2011 8:46:00 PM (view original):

Posted by moy23 on 8/8/2011 7:31:00 PM (view original):

Posted by antonsirius on 8/8/2011 7:15:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 8/8/2011 4:39:00 PM (view original):
The thing with sales tax is that you get everyone.  Even those making money "under the table".   Drug dealers aren't taxed on profit.  But, if they have to pay 30% sales tax on that new Mercedes, they will be taxed just as much as the construction worker pounding rocks for a living who saves for years for the same car. 

Not if the drug dealer buys his Benz from the chop shop down the street.

Any massive sales tax increase, FAIR or VAT or whatever, is going to prompt a massive expansion of the black market.

Ha ha.... yep.... I'm going to buy toothpaste on the black market. And milk.... I'll probably buy a goat.... or a cow, whichever is cheaper. And then Ill probably go to the banana republic black market for my next pair of work pants too....

You're not one of the people I expected to play the "naive about human nature" card.

People cheat on their income taxes now. Why would you not think a large portion of the population would cheat on their FAIR tax, when there's that much incentive to do so? Not necessarily just consumers either - how would you know if your toothpaste was 'off the books' and the retailer was just pocketing that 30%?

Or, if you don't like theory, try something a little more concrete.

Until FAIR/VAT/whatever tax proponents start factoring in the lost revenue from black market expansion when they try to calculate how awesome it would be, I consider it just more utopian rainbows-and-ponies bullshit. Or, depending on your perspective, just one more Norquistian stealth effort to starve the federal government.

Sure indivifuals and businesses cheat on their taxes..... but logically it would seem easier to police just businesses rather than both businesses and individuals as we do now. Wouldn't you agree?

Don't forget people will be taking home more money to offset the higher sales tax.... for instance, if one makes $60k they would bring home all $60k.

And if the retailer is selling the items and pocketing the sales tax then that's their problem... not the consumers. I'm sure the fines/levies/jail time will be steep when caught.

That study is great.... for addictive substances. I would hardly compare a new pair of shoes to a pack of smokes. I'm not saying their wont be a black market. I'm saying its an extreme to argue it..... just like the link you posted on the gas fraud in Texas citing the whopping $100 million in theft from a $6 trillion oil industry. Its sounds like a big # but its really a small potatoes considering the big picture.

No, moy, it's not the retailer's problem or the consumer's problem - it's the government's problem. Which is my point. FAIR tax proponents claim it will be revenue-neutral, and yet that site you posted the link to earlier, as near as I can tell, does not use the phrase "black market" anywhere on it at all. What mention of 'non-compliance' there is, is purely of the 'retailers under-reporting their sales' variety, and not of the 'consumers and retailers staying off the radar entirely' variety.

If you want to argue that I'm exaggerating the problem, fine. Present your evidence. But your FAIR tax experts don't give any indication that they're even considered the problem yet, and until they do I see no reason to take them, or their proposal, seriously.

Removing the non-ironic reference to the "Irish Miracle" from the FAQ wouldn't hurt either.

Posted by antonsirius on 8/9/2011 7:26:00 AM (view original):
No, moy, it's not the retailer's problem or the consumer's problem - it's the government's problem. Which is my point. FAIR tax proponents claim it will be revenue-neutral, and yet that site you posted the link to earlier, as near as I can tell, does not use the phrase "black market" anywhere on it at all. What mention of 'non-compliance' there is, is purely of the 'retailers under-reporting their sales' variety, and not of the 'consumers and retailers staying off the radar entirely' variety.

If you want to argue that I'm exaggerating the problem, fine. Present your evidence. But your FAIR tax experts don't give any indication that they're even considered the problem yet, and until they do I see no reason to take them, or their proposal, seriously.

Removing the non-ironic reference to the "Irish Miracle" from the FAQ wouldn't hurt either.

Ok. Its the govies problem. Compared to today it would realistically be less of a problem since now they only need to audit businesses rather than both individual and business tax reporting. YOU WOULD AGREE WITH THIS STATEMENT, CORRECT? Otherwise we are done here.

I don't care what the website reports on a black market - its a pro fair tax website - of course its going to be biased..... there exists a black market today on plenty of items such as tobacco, drugs, guns, apparently $100 million in gas, etc and there will be one with the fair tax ...... which just like today the gov't will crack down on. You are seeing it now with on-line retailers now having to pay sales taxes and offshore betting websites. A black market is a minor point, just like today, when considering the big picture in this tax code change.

While you focus on the GINORMOUS black market you've seemed to glance over the supposedly 'minor' details like closing corporate and wealthy tax loopholes, incentivising foreign companies to invest in the US, finding a way to get illegals to financially contribute to society, and an end to cass warfare over who should pay more taxes and how much. You've glanced over behavioural changes that are good for society such as conservation of resources. You've also glanced over supposedly 'minor' details like the middle class can actually invest money w/o penalty, allowing them to become wealthy. But then again.... the current system is awesome..... we got this really cool deficit thing and it will all be fixed by taxing anyone 'lucky' enough to earn over $250k HHI. But yeah, you are right that ginormous black market thing is a real doozy. Scrap the fair tax.

I assumed someone was scream "BLACK MARKET!!!" and started to address it when I suggested those not paying taxes now would be paying sales tax.   I choose not to because I thought it would be more fun to let someone point out the obvious HUGE black market problems that would be created.

Yep,   Under the table sales would be expanded.   But it's pretty hard for a car lot to hide the sale of a car.  It's on the inventory, it's not in inventory.  What happened to it?  I guess we'd have more reported "stolen" cars but does the drug dealer buying his car on the black market want the cops looking for his car?

Sales tax solves a lot more problems than it creates.   Every system will create a new set of problems.   So the key is to find the system that works best and forces EVERYONE to pay their FAIR SHARE(or close to it).   A sales tax does that.

Posted by moy23 on 8/9/2011 8:01:00 AM (view original):

Posted by antonsirius on 8/9/2011 7:26:00 AM (view original):
No, moy, it's not the retailer's problem or the consumer's problem - it's the government's problem. Which is my point. FAIR tax proponents claim it will be revenue-neutral, and yet that site you posted the link to earlier, as near as I can tell, does not use the phrase "black market" anywhere on it at all. What mention of 'non-compliance' there is, is purely of the 'retailers under-reporting their sales' variety, and not of the 'consumers and retailers staying off the radar entirely' variety.

If you want to argue that I'm exaggerating the problem, fine. Present your evidence. But your FAIR tax experts don't give any indication that they're even considered the problem yet, and until they do I see no reason to take them, or their proposal, seriously.

Removing the non-ironic reference to the "Irish Miracle" from the FAQ wouldn't hurt either.

Ok. Its the govies problem. Compared to today it would realistically be less of a problem since now they only need to audit businesses rather than both individual and business tax reporting. YOU WOULD AGREE WITH THIS STATEMENT, CORRECT? Otherwise we are done here.

I don't care what the website reports on a black market - its a pro fair tax website - of course its going to be biased..... there exists a black market today on plenty of items such as tobacco, drugs, guns, apparently $100 million in gas, etc and there will be one with the fair tax ...... which just like today the gov't will crack down on. You are seeing it now with on-line retailers now having to pay sales taxes and offshore betting websites. A black market is a minor point, just like today, when considering the big picture in this tax code change.

While you focus on the GINORMOUS black market you've seemed to glance over the supposedly 'minor' details like closing corporate and wealthy tax loopholes, incentivising foreign companies to invest in the US, finding a way to get illegals to financially contribute to society, and an end to cass warfare over who should pay more taxes and how much. You've glanced over behavioural changes that are good for society such as conservation of resources. You've also glanced over supposedly 'minor' details like the middle class can actually invest money w/o penalty, allowing them to become wealthy. But then again.... the current system is awesome..... we got this really cool deficit thing and it will all be fixed by taxing anyone 'lucky' enough to earn over $250k HHI. But yeah, you are right that ginormous black market thing is a real doozy. Scrap the fair tax.

I'm not glossing over anything, moy. I'm pointing out that the claims the FAIR tax would be revenue-neutral appear to be shoddily researched at best, and completely fictional at worst.

If that claim is fiction, then a big part of the argument in favor of the tax disappears... unless, as I said, you think starving the federal government is a swell idea.

Would the FAIR tax solve or reduce existing problems with the tax system? Of course. Would it create new problems? Of course. Until you're willing to look at both sides of that equation honestly, I agree that we are done here.

I have looked at both sides honestly. In fact - When I first looked into the fair tax in 2008 I thouight it was an absolute joke (just like huckabee was)... until I started reading more into it. The positives outway the negatives BIG TIME imo.

And a big YES to starving the government - they need to spend more responsibly before they can eat well again. Why is it my wife spent 2 hours waiting at the social security office to change her last name yesterday, and another 30 minutes to get a new drivers license... but only 3 minutes to change her name at the bank? I work with a guy that used to order $6 rolls of toilet paper for the military... $6 !!?!?! Come on. Yes the gov't needs a bit more starving if they think they can afford these types of goods and provide shoddy services.

I think the coolest part of the Fair tax is I can choose how much I want to pay in taxes.... If I am not happy that the US went to war in Iraq I can spend less (i.e. boycott big spending) so that I feel better about not supporting the war.

If America was really 'for the people' then give the people a choice rather than reigning like the King of England and collecting taxes at will.

Posted by moy23 on 8/9/2011 9:12:00 AM (view original):
I have looked at both sides honestly. In fact - When I first looked into the fair tax in 2008 I thouight it was an absolute joke (just like huckabee was)... until I started reading more into it. The positives outway the negatives BIG TIME imo.

And a big YES to starving the government - they need to spend more responsibly before they can eat well again. Why is it my wife spent 2 hours waiting at the social security office to change her last name yesterday, and another 30 minutes to get a new drivers license... but only 3 minutes to change her name at the bank? I work with a guy that used to order $6 rolls of toilet paper for the military... $6 !!?!?! Come on. Yes the gov't needs a bit more starving if they think they can afford these types of goods and provide shoddy services.

Did he order that 500 dollar hammer too?

no kidding, right.