Posted by jrd_x on 6/6/2012 10:17:00 AM (view original):
The tradition has changed. Marriage now includes gay couples.

You say "has changed".  I say "is gone".

Can "tradition" change or is it replaced?

Posted by MikeT23 on 6/5/2012 1:33:00 PM (view original):

Posted by jrd_x on 6/4/2012 5:50:00 PM (view original):
Gay marriage affects no one but the gay couple getting married.

At the end of the day, you refuse to acknowledge this is a false statement.

Some of us have pointed out financial aspects. 
tec has pointed out the traditional aspect.

You repeat "Gay marriage affects no one but the gay couple getting married" over and over again without acknowledging that businesses could feel some financial harm or pass the additional costs on to other employees.    Then you repeat "Gay marriage affects no one but the gay couple getting married" again without acknowledging that if affects the traditional components of marriage.

One could get a better argument from a rock simply because the rock MIGHT acknowledge that more than two people are affected by SSM.

This.

The rock would show itself to be smarter than jrd because it wouldn't say anything.

Posted by MikeT23 on 6/6/2012 10:32:00 AM (view original):
Can "tradition" change or is it replaced?

It can change, but it only changes for the same sex couples.  The heterosexual couples see no change.

It's tradition to get a Christmas tree.  I'm assuming your family gets a tree every year (or has an artificial one).

If, this year, my family gets a cactus in December and decorates it and puts presents under it, and plans on using a cactus every year going forward, that changes the tradition for my family.  Does it change the tradition for your family?

Posted by jrd_x on 6/6/2012 11:17:00 AM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 6/6/2012 10:32:00 AM (view original):
Can "tradition" change or is it replaced?

It can change, but it only changes for the same sex couples.  The heterosexual couples see no change.

It's tradition to get a Christmas tree.  I'm assuming your family gets a tree every year (or has an artificial one).

If, this year, my family gets a cactus in December and decorates it and puts presents under it, and plans on using a cactus every year going forward, that changes the tradition for my family.  Does it change the tradition for your family?

Either you have a very fundamental inability to understand the meaning of concepts like "tradition", or you're just being a stubborn ***.

I'm pretty sure it's the latter, but I can't rule out the former.

You didn't answer the question. If my family gets a cactus at Christmas, does it change the tradition of anyone else?

Posted by jrd_x on 6/6/2012 11:35:00 AM (view original):
You didn't answer the question. If my family gets a cactus at Christmas, does it change the tradition of anyone else?

Christmas is celebrated with many different traditions in different parts of the world.  It is also not celebrated by a significant portion (approximately 67%) of the world's population.

For all I know, a Christmas cactus might be traditional in some of those cultures that do celebrate it.

However, the institution of marriage has traditionally and universally been defined as a bond between one man and one woman since the dawn of human civilization.

You're missing the point.  Does my family changing a tradition in my house change the tradition for anyone else?

Your tradition is confined to you and your culture.  Or maybe just to you.  Your Christmas tradition and my Christmas tradition are two different things.

The institution and tradition of marriage is universal, as it has been defined with a consistent basic foundation of "one man and one woman" over thousands of years of human culture and social norms.

Do you understand that?

For the portion of the US that celebrates Christmas, a Christmas tree is traditional. 

There is no tradition for a Christmas cactus to the best of my knowledge.

But I think you fail to understand the concept of "tradition".   Doing something one year, like using a cactus, isn't a tradition.    Do it a few years in a row and then call it "traditionally".

Posted by tecwrg on 6/6/2012 12:23:00 PM (view original):
Your tradition is confined to you and your culture.  Or maybe just to you.  Your Christmas tradition and my Christmas tradition are two different things.

The institution and tradition of marriage is universal, as it has been defined with a consistent basic foundation of "one man and one woman" over thousands of years of human culture and social norms.

Do you understand that?

And it still includes one man and one woman for everyone that wants to get married.  Marriage is now expanded to include gay couples also.

That change is not a harm in itself to anyone.  You already said that your marriage isn't affected by gay marriage.  Whose marriage is affected? 

Posted by jrd_x on 6/6/2012 12:30:00 PM (view original):
And it still includes one man and one woman for everyone that wants to get married.  Marriage is now expanded to include gay couples also.

That change is not a harm in itself to anyone.  You already said that your marriage isn't affected by gay marriage.  Who's marriage is affected? 

Anyone whose company provides benefits.  The company will have to either spend more money to cover SSM, or lower the benefits to existing covered traditionally married couples, or raise the costs for everyone.

I know if my paycheck changes by $50/month, my marriage is affected.

Posted by toddcommish on 6/6/2012 12:33:00 PM (view original):

Posted by jrd_x on 6/6/2012 12:30:00 PM (view original):
And it still includes one man and one woman for everyone that wants to get married.  Marriage is now expanded to include gay couples also.

That change is not a harm in itself to anyone.  You already said that your marriage isn't affected by gay marriage.  Who's marriage is affected? 

Anyone whose company provides benefits.  The company will have to either spend more money to cover SSM, or lower the benefits to existing covered traditionally married couples, or raise the costs for everyone.

I know if my paycheck changes by $50/month, my marriage is affected.

That isn't a harm from gay marriage, but marriage benefits in general.  I'm single.  I could argue that traditional marriage harms me because my company pays less of my premium in order to afford paying some of the premiums for other employees' families.  Should we ban all forms of marriage?

tec's baseball analogy and jrdx's evident misunderstanding of tradition got me thinking.    What fundamental aspect of baseball has changed over the years?   The answer is pretty obvious and it really applies to this discussion.  The DH.

Traditionally, 9 men played.   Each took a spot in the field and each hit somewhere in the order.   All that changed when Ron Bloomberg left his glove at home just over 39 years ago. 

So, the AL and the NL are different.  Both are still baseball.  Some say the AL is better.  Some say the AL plays a bastardized version of baseball.    Does the AL traditionally allow for a DH?   Is 39 years long enough to establish a tradition?   How long would it be before one could say SSM is "traditional"?    Would SSM be a bastardized version of marriage?