The value of a Closer vs Setup A Topic

burnsy483
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Posted by pjfoster13 on 2/26/2014 2:28:00 PM (view original):
Thank you for your examples Mike, if it was me I would definitely use Ford as the 2-inning setup and Willis as the 1-inning closer because of the stam-durability combos and the Makeup is a bonus. 

Tec I disagree that Makeup is not used for in-game performance, but we have no way of proving each other wrong unless we had a developer confirm or deny it.  But intuitively, you would think that the devs would write mental focus into the game as an attribute of day-to-day variance.  There is a consensus amongst real-life baseball analysts that a pitcher must have that intangible "It" quality to be a successful closer, so I operate under the assumption that of the hoarde of ratings that this game creates, One of them contributes to in-game It
If what you're saying is true, I would think a developer would have addressed it at some point.
2/26/2014 2:31 PM
pjfoster13
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Well it's awfully convenient to make incredibly broad statements such as "Ignore minor league stats in a vacuum." Here's a broad statement for your imagination- DON'T dismiss minor league stats. Dismissing evidence because it does not meet your criteria of validity does not disprove a theory
2/26/2014 2:31 PM
pjfoster13
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tec-
The one exception to this would be the example that travis pointed out in his post. If you have a lights-out reliever with a low DUR/STA combo such that he's not going to get significantly more innings as a SuA as opposed to as a closer, then it probably makes sense to utilize him in the closer role. Those types of pitchers are few and far between, however. They are the exception rather than the rule.

That guy Espinosa I posted and Mike's guy Willis are examples of guys whose IP volumes are limited so are "intended" by the devs to be used as 1-inning closers.

Tec I am agreeing with you that you shouldn't limit a designed-Setup to the closer role.  It would be a mistake to limit that player's innings. But I'm also saying that it would be a similar mistake to stretch a designed-Closer into a setup role, because it would be a mistake to stretch that player's innings

People aren't always arguing against you, it's ok to let people agree with you
2/26/2014 2:36 PM
burnsy483
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Minor leagues are too different from each other, depending on what world you're in, what ballpark you play in, etc.  One league's High A league may be significantly more talented than another.  One league may have 30 owners paying close attention to their minor league teams, one league may have 20.  There are too many variables involved, IMO, than to show a player's stats on a level and try to draw a conclusion from it.  If you want to compare multiples players in one league, you'd have a better argument.
2/26/2014 2:36 PM
pjfoster13
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burnsy- "If what you're saying is true, I would think a developer would have addressed it at some point."

If this game actually had devs we could persuade them to address it, but, sadly..
2/26/2014 2:42 PM
pjfoster13
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burnsy- "There are too many variables involved, IMO, than to show a player's stats on a level and try to draw a conclusion from it."

Those are all valid points, but the points are not universally true. It may be true but it's not guaranteed to be true. It's one explanation that could disprove it, but you shouldn't just automatically discount it. It's confirmation bias, just as my own observations may be confirmation bias. We must acknowledge our biases before either of us can overcome them, right?
2/26/2014 2:45 PM
zbrent716
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Does the makeup rating effect a players performance during a high pressure situation? For example a closer who has the winning run on base? (brewsbrother - Hall of Famer - 2:46 PM)

Currently, it does not affect player performance in high pressure situations.


http://www.whatifsports.com/devchat/devchat.asp?chatid=59

Please no more analysis based on minor league stats pjfoster13.
2/26/2014 2:46 PM
pjfoster13
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Thank you for looking that up for us, snarkybrent.

The research alone would have been sufficient, thank you.
2/26/2014 2:48 PM
burnsy483
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The vast majority of how the game is played is spelled out for you in various ways.  Makeup is defined in the help section under "player ratings."  There aren't many "hidden" attributes in the game.  There are a couple examples - a low temper leads to more HBP, for some reason.  But you should show more evidence for your theory if you want it to be believable.

I'm challenging you here because I dislike newbies trying to learn the game, seeing someone say something that may or may not be true, and running with it as if it's fact.  You need to show your work more.
2/26/2014 2:49 PM
tecwrg
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Posted by pjfoster13 on 2/26/2014 2:36:00 PM (view original):
tec-
The one exception to this would be the example that travis pointed out in his post. If you have a lights-out reliever with a low DUR/STA combo such that he's not going to get significantly more innings as a SuA as opposed to as a closer, then it probably makes sense to utilize him in the closer role. Those types of pitchers are few and far between, however. They are the exception rather than the rule.

That guy Espinosa I posted and Mike's guy Willis are examples of guys whose IP volumes are limited so are "intended" by the devs to be used as 1-inning closers.

Tec I am agreeing with you that you shouldn't limit a designed-Setup to the closer role.  It would be a mistake to limit that player's innings. But I'm also saying that it would be a similar mistake to stretch a designed-Closer into a setup role, because it would be a mistake to stretch that player's innings

People aren't always arguing against you, it's ok to let people agree with you

I guess I'll just further disagree that a particular combination of ratings implies that a specific pitcher is intended or designed by the HBD developers to be a closer.

The players are what they are.  It's up to the manager to decide how to most effectively utilize them.

And I'll leave it at that.

2/26/2014 2:49 PM
pjfoster13
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tec-
"Those specifics are purely left up to the manager to decide how to deploy each pitcher into those roles, based on the primary pitcher ratings such as control, splits, pitches, etc."
I agree with most/all of this post but I can disagree with this one sentence.  Yes the manager can put 85 stam-20 durs all into setup and a 60 stam 40 dur into closer but that doesn't mean that simmy engineered the players for those roles. 

From this guy's original post, I'm saying that the attribute math is nudging him towards putting PlayerA into setup and PlayerB into closer because of the pitch count / recovery scenarios based on the way the manager processes day-to-day use.  Indeed, he can put them into long-relief for all I care as he has the right to deploy them however he wants. I am purely saying that the engine appears to "nudge" the user into putting a player into setup whose dur+stam > 105 or 110 esp when stam is higher than 25, and "nudges" the user into putting guys into closer whose dur+stam<100 esp when stam is lower than 25
2/26/2014 2:53 PM
burnsy483
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Aside from "starter" and "reliever" I disagree that the sim "nudges" a player into a particular role.  And further, that a player will play better/worse based on whether or not he's playing in the "right" role.

Just because a player can only throw 15 pitches, doesn't mean he should do that in the 9th inning rather than the 7th.
2/26/2014 2:57 PM
pjfoster13
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burnsy- I will no longer believe that Makeup contributes to anything in any way. Except possibly that a 35 year old rookie with sub-optimal ratings could miraculously emerge into an effective ML reliever
2/26/2014 2:58 PM
burnsy483
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Posted by pjfoster13 on 2/26/2014 2:58:00 PM (view original):
burnsy- I will no longer believe that Makeup contributes to anything in any way. Except possibly that a 35 year old rookie with sub-optimal ratings could miraculously emerge into an effective ML reliever
I don't know what that means.  If you have ratings that say a player can play on the ML level, then he could probably play successfully on the ML level. Makeup almost definitely doesn't affect gameplay in any way.
2/26/2014 3:01 PM
pjfoster13
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burnsy- "Aside from "starter" and "reliever" I disagree that the sim "nudges" a player into a particular role."

Well the differences between starter and reliever are so obvious that you'd have to be an idiot not to understand. However, WIS presents so many difference options for relief pitching that it could be helpful to "newbies" to point out which players are intended for which roles based on which ratings.

And further, that a player will play better/worse based on whether or not he's playing in the "right" role.

The role should define his pitch counts. If you have a d+s 110 pitcher he can throw more pitches and throw them more days, and on the next day can still have a green 100 next to him.  If he throws too many pitches, the next day he might only be 80 (100), and is it correct to assume that this level of fatigue will make him play worse on the following day?

So indeed, the user should be applying players to their correct workloads in order to protect their per-inning efficiency by not killing it with blowups caused by fatigue.

That was the essense of the user's original question.
2/26/2014 3:05 PM
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