How To Rebuild A Disaster 2: Season 17-? Topic

iain
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Hell yes!

One should be adding to the "good", not actively ridding yourself of it.... regardless of salary.
9/16/2010 10:26 AM
MikeT23
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A player like Ledee gives you the chance to be competitive.   If you're taking over a 50 win team, you probably don't have a lot of good players.    When I took over my HJ team, I traded a couple of "good" players that didn't fit my idea of what I needed in Vegas.   Then I jacked my payroll up over 100m by signing FA.   Just so I could improve from 42 wins to 66.   Doing this didn't kill my rebuilding process.

Happy Jack LV Pit Boss 4 $101.9M 66-96 (.407) 3 -
Happy Jack LV Pit Boss 5 $90.7M 76-86 (.469) 2 -
Happy Jack LV Pit Boss 6 $82.1M 75-87 (.463) 2 -
Happy Jack LV Pit Boss 7 $83.0M 92-70 (.568) 2 -
Happy Jack LV Pit Boss 8 $74.1M 90-72 (.556) 1 -
Happy Jack LV Pit Boss 9 $74.5M 93-69 (.574) 1 -
Happy Jack LV Pit Boss 10 $74.1M 91-71 (.562) 1 -
Happy Jack LV Pit Boss 11 $86.0M 92-70 (.568) 1 X
Happy Jack LV Pit Boss 12 $87.4M 107-55 (.660) 1 -
Happy Jack LV Pit Boss 13 $95.3M 89-73 (.549) 2 X
9/16/2010 10:32 AM
mlhutch
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So what you are saying commenters, is that we could be witnessing the future 'Tanker's Bible' as it unfolds in real-time?  I am pulling up a seat.

I am glad we will be saving this for posterity.
9/16/2010 11:08 AM
csherwood
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Posted by Stewart_UK on 9/16/2010 8:48:00 AM (view original):
I never quiet understood the rationale of trading away your best players when rebuilding, unless they are in there last year and your getting value for them rather than a draft pick. Surely if you have solid blocks in place you build from there and not start all over again?
But if you want to bring in the top prospects, the only way you will do it is by trading your top players. If I think it will be 2-3 years before I can compete for a playoff spot, and I have a 32 year old stud player with 2-3 years left on his contract, he does nothing for me by keeping him on my big league team (because I dont have enough otherpieces to win now), and by the time his contract is over he will be starting to decline and lose significant trade value. On the other hand if I can bring in a future #1 or #2 starter and an outfield prospect with 45+ HR potential, plus save 7 or 8 million that can be used this season for a couple mid-level free agents to fill out my roster and still be somewhat comeptitive, I have given myself an even better chance at success come my third season. (and this example is a trade that I just made in Mays -- I moved a guy with 40/40 potential for a future ace pitcher, and a 100 projected power hitting prospect in a hitter's park)
9/16/2010 11:12 AM
MikeT23
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Yeah but you were known as tankerwood in ABU.   You have a lack of concern for being competitive. 

9/16/2010 11:19 AM
MikeT23
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IOW, when the stated objective was to stabilize the world and make the bad teams competitive, you took a step backwards.  With a 52 win team.  Doesn't seem possible unless you have no regard for winning.

1 bdedon ML 71-91 .438 4th No No      
2 bdedon ML 53-109 .327 4th No No      
3 threester ML 52-110 .321 4th No No      
4 csherwood ML 49-113 .302 4th No No      
5 csherwood ML 73-89 .451 4th No No      
6 csherwood ML 72-90 .444 2nd No No      
7 csherwood ML 98-64 .605 1st No Yes yes no no
8 csherwood ML 106-56 .654 1st No Yes no no no
9 csherwood ML 89-73 .549 1st No Yes no no no
10 csherwood ML 54-40 .574 - - - - - -
9/16/2010 11:23 AM
Stewart_UK
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Posted by csherwood on 9/16/2010 11:12:00 AM (view original):
Posted by Stewart_UK on 9/16/2010 8:48:00 AM (view original):
I never quiet understood the rationale of trading away your best players when rebuilding, unless they are in there last year and your getting value for them rather than a draft pick. Surely if you have solid blocks in place you build from there and not start all over again?
But if you want to bring in the top prospects, the only way you will do it is by trading your top players. If I think it will be 2-3 years before I can compete for a playoff spot, and I have a 32 year old stud player with 2-3 years left on his contract, he does nothing for me by keeping him on my big league team (because I dont have enough otherpieces to win now), and by the time his contract is over he will be starting to decline and lose significant trade value. On the other hand if I can bring in a future #1 or #2 starter and an outfield prospect with 45+ HR potential, plus save 7 or 8 million that can be used this season for a couple mid-level free agents to fill out my roster and still be somewhat comeptitive, I have given myself an even better chance at success come my third season. (and this example is a trade that I just made in Mays -- I moved a guy with 40/40 potential for a future ace pitcher, and a 100 projected power hitting prospect in a hitter's park)
Thats the point I was making though your happy to write off 2-3 seasons? Why would you want to do that? If thats the way you want to go fine it just seems strange to me.
9/16/2010 11:58 AM
willsauve
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Posted by MikeT23 on 9/16/2010 11:23:00 AM (view original):
IOW, when the stated objective was to stabilize the world and make the bad teams competitive, you took a step backwards.  With a 52 win team.  Doesn't seem possible unless you have no regard for winning.

1 bdedon ML 71-91 .438 4th No No      
2 bdedon ML 53-109 .327 4th No No      
3 threester ML 52-110 .321 4th No No      
4 csherwood ML 49-113 .302 4th No No      
5 csherwood ML 73-89 .451 4th No No      
6 csherwood ML 72-90 .444 2nd No No      
7 csherwood ML 98-64 .605 1st No Yes yes no no
8 csherwood ML 106-56 .654 1st No Yes no no no
9 csherwood ML 89-73 .549 1st No Yes no no no
10 csherwood ML 54-40 .574 - - - - - -

I think its silly to jack your payroll up to 100M just to win 66 games..  I guess, the term tanking could be placed on anyone who doesnt want to take 6 seasons to turn around a dogcrap team..  With a payroll at 100M and a 66 win team you cant normally get a top INT FA and you get a pick towards the middle of the draft.  I dont see a problem with an owner taking a step back in his 1st season if it will help him build a better team for the future. Then again im new..

9/16/2010 1:08 PM
iain
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If you're picking outside of the top 5 with only 66 wins, you have too many tankers in your world already.  Try to win some easy games and sneak into the playoffs.

And there are ways of getting good IFAs that don't include dropping your payroll to nothing and pouring $50M into prospects.
9/16/2010 1:25 PM
MikeT23
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willsauve, I guess you missed the part where I took a WC in S4 of my rebuilding, won the division 5 straight times after that and won two WS.   Would a great IFA signed in S1 of the rebuild have mattered?   Wouldn't it have taken him until S4 of the rebuild to make a difference?  You know, pretty much the same time I started winning 90+, divsions and world series?

1 reddevil19 ML 72-90 .444 4th No No      
2 reddevil19 ML 58-104 .358 4th No No      
3 mmacharg ML 42-120 .259 4th No No      
4 MikeT23 ML 66-96 .407 3rd No No      
5 MikeT23 ML 76-86 .469 2nd No No      
6 MikeT23 ML 75-87 .463 2nd No No      
7 MikeT23 ML 92-70 .568 2nd Yes No no no no
8 MikeT23 ML 90-72 .556 1st No Yes no no no
9 MikeT23 ML 93-69 .574 1st No Yes yes no no
10 MikeT23 ML 91-71 .562 1st No Yes no no no
11 MikeT23 ML 92-70 .568 1st No Yes yes yes yes
12 MikeT23 ML 107-55 .660 1st No Yes yes no no
13 MikeT23 ML 89-73 .549 2nd Yes No yes yes yes
14 gerald007 ML 88-74 .543 1st No Yes no no no
15 gerald007 ML 76-86 .469 2nd No No      
16 gerald007 ML 87-75 .537 2nd No No      
17 onubears4656 ML 0-0 --- - - - - - -
9/16/2010 1:35 PM
MikeT23
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So, assuming you're hearing what I'm saying, what would the benefit have been to win 38 in my first season while slashing payroll? 
9/16/2010 1:37 PM
deanod
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holy crap those trades were awful.

he should change his handle to "bbwinnever"
9/16/2010 1:39 PM
MikeT23
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I think this ends with "They had me removed under WifS' tanking guidelines."
9/16/2010 1:59 PM
deanod
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Some people just aren't capable of making sense of the mass amounts of information that HBD has to offer.

I don't think bwinnever has to go out of his way to get a high draft pick, I think it comes naturally.  Look at those deals, he traded a quality pro and a studly pro for some deadweight salary and AAA guys.  That's not advancing his longterm standing at all, because he doesn't even free up cash to throw at IFA's- he just made his already crappy team worse by sacrificing valuable players for nothing.  I just don't think anybody is irrational enough to trade those guys without getting at least some decent prospects in return unless they legitimately have no clue what they are doing.  And that's what I think BB's problem is.
9/16/2010 2:11 PM
bbwinnow
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My rationale for trading Ledee isn't this year's salary, it's next year. Ledee was declining a bit and he wouldn't have been worth the 8.6mil for seasons 18 and 19. This is exactly the kinds of trades real GMs make if they aren't going to be a contender. Plus, I underestimated Vazquez' arb salary by about 1mil, and Vazquez is every bit as good for my team as Cooper.

By the way, I made two more trades:

El Paso gets 4.6mil (2 years) C Juan Urbina and 343k pitching prospect William Jackson. Santa Fe gets pitching prospect Jose Pineda and shortstop prospect Marcus Armstrong. I figured there would be a cheaper replacement for Urbina in FA, plus this clears a bit of salary for a pitcher.

Norfolk gets 1B Ahmed Ramirez' 5mil/3yrs contract (ok, he can still hit a bit) and 500k 2B Douglas Malone. Santa Fe gets 327k LF Rabbit Hudson, who hasn't played in the majors since season 7 and is basically a scrap heap find that can get me through the season.

These are exactly the kind of deals csherwood made all those seasons ago: a huge multi-year contract and another player for a player similar to the other player.
9/16/2010 2:19 PM
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