Hold the Ace SP Prospect in AAA, 3rd Pro Season? - Page 16 - Hardball Dynasty

Posts: 3152 (0)

Hall of Famer

115 18 1 119 1 52

Prospect

I think we have another 35 pages to go.

FWIW, I abandoned the logical debate because it got boring- you have a propensity to just take the other person's argument and reverse it in your favor. I played the whiny angle for a bit, since I assumed you could take it after dishing out your own personality reads. Lo and behold, you said "no, you're the one who's whining!"

It's like old grade school line "I know you are but what am I???"

9/16/2010 8:21 PM

shobob

Posts: 3404 (0)

Hall of Famer

1 370

Prospect

I agree with Mike. Traderaping noobs is bad for worlds. Period. It's been a fun read, though.

9/16/2010 8:22 PM

shobob

Posts: 3404 (0)

Hall of Famer

1 370

Prospect

...And yes, this is a game. But you play it with your real time, with your real money, against real people, who paid their real money.

9/16/2010 8:24 PM

tecwrg

Posts: 18997 (0)

Hall of Famer

4 1 166 32 129

Prospect

Posted by plague on 9/16/2010 7:09:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 9/16/2010 7:05:00 PM (view original):
So, even though they're plunking down real money and spending real time, it's OK to take advantage of them because they don't know any better? That's your defense? And we're supposed to believe you wouldn't do the same in real life?

Is that because you're afraid someone would beat the living dogshit out of you if you ripped them off and they realized it?
I don't care if you believe it or not. If I am playing a game in real life I have no problem ripping them off within the game.. I am actually bigger than most people, I don't really have a fear of getting my *** kicked, plus *** kicking generally went out with High School.

Just catching up after a fairly busy day and evening. This was my favorite plague post today.

"I'm big 'n strong and ain't 'fraid o' nobody!"

9/16/2010 9:54 PM

jtrinsey

Posts: 237 (0)

All Star

1 4 2 30

Rookie

I play poker in casino card rooms for 2-3 sessions of 4 or 5 hours a piece each week. I'm no pro, but I'm significantly better than the average recreational player.

I assume everybody sitting down at the table understands the risks of gambling. If somebody is obviously a weak player, I will not check down with my top straight just because they don't know how to let go of a weak two pair. I'll keep betting and that will be a $200-$500 lesson they will have to learn- just like the lesson a better player will hand me every now and again. Everybody sits down at the same table and they should play by the same rules. I don't think there's anything unethical about whooping somebody's *** in a game. Would I bring about pwning some n00b? No, but I wouldn't consider it unethical to whoop their ***. I was never trade-raped as a n00b (not saying all my trades were perfect, but there's only 1 or 2 that I regret and not seriously), because I spent a lot of time researching the game and asking opinions from vets before I made moves.

So I don't think there's anything unethical about n00b trade rape. With that said, I highly look down at the practice and agree when it was said not to offer a trade that you yourself would veto. This is simply because I would rather be a 3rd-place team in a highly competitive, well-run, no-drama league then dominate a weaker league that has high turnover because owners get took in the beginning or certain franchises are just way stronger/weaker. So, while I agree with plague that anybody plunking down 25 bucks to play a game should learn how to play first... I think that, in the end, you get a better quality of experience by not engaging in n00b rape.

9/16/2010 10:11 PM

tecwrg

Posts: 18997 (0)

Hall of Famer

4 1 166 32 129

Prospect

Posted by plague on 9/16/2010 8:07:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 9/16/2010 7:52:00 PM (view original):
If you trade someone a pile of turds for a stud, it's no different than selling a broken watch. It's a simple case of "Buyer Beware". The n00b should have known better as should have the purchaser of the watch. Again, the difference is doing it face to face. You don't have the heart, for lack of a better word, to screw someone out of $25 when you're looking them in the face. I'm not saying that's a bad thing, ripping someone off isn't an admirable trait, but, because you can't do it face to face, it makes you less manly than you've been pretending to be.
Again Mike, I have tried to say this over and over. I don't look at real life dealings the same as I do a game. You pay $25 to play the game, when you do that you should expect to play the game and everything that is involved in that game, when I am new to a game I do not expect you or anyone else to give me special treatment.

When you hand someone a broken watch for $25 under the premise that it is not broken, then you are unethical and committing a illegal act against the laws of the United States. It's just not the same analogy.

I differentiate my perception between a game and real life. It has nothing to do with being a man.

Plague shows here that he lives in a different reality than most other people.

The $25 the n00b spends on a season of HBD may be worth exactly the same as the $25 that they might spend on buying a broken watch. Just because YOU differentiate one as fundamentally different from the other does not mean that everybody else sees them as fundamentally different as well. If I pay $25 for a watch only to find out it's broken, I'm going to be ******. Most likely, I'm not going to buy from that seller again. Likewise, if I pay $25 to play an internet game and find out that I'm being blatantly taken advantage of by somebody much more experienced than me, just because they can, I'm also going to be ******. Most likely, I might not want to play that internet game again. That hurts the HBD community as a whole. As a member of the HBD community, I'm not too thrilled too see this going on.

I get what you're saying about not being babied, learning the hard way, etc. But going out of your way and acting as if you're actually proud and completely justified in sticking it to n00bs really reeks, and says a lot about you as a person. Not that I think it really matters to you, because apparently you seperate your online persona from your real-life persona. Kind of like a Jekyll and Hyde thing. I'm not quite sure most people do that.

9/16/2010 10:15 PM

deanod

Posts: 3152 (0)

Hall of Famer

115 18 1 119 1 52

Prospect

Poker is a very different game because of the financial aspect- some people even make a career of it...if a n00b is playing $500 hands, they deserve any asswhooping they get.

9/16/2010 10:17 PM

shobob

Posts: 3404 (0)

Hall of Famer

1 370

Prospect

jtrinsey makes a decent point. The one time I sat down at a cash game in a casino, I was relieved of my $40 pretty quick. I learned to never try that again, and to stick with my home game. Is that what we want in HBD?

9/16/2010 10:29 PM

deanod

Posts: 3152 (0)

Hall of Famer

115 18 1 119 1 52

Prospect

Well, in HBD $25 buys you 3 months of fun. At a casino poker table, $25 may not be enough to hang around long enough for the waitress to take your drink order.

9/16/2010 10:35 PM (edited)

jtrinsey

Posts: 237 (0)

All Star

1 4 2 30

Rookie

Posted by shobob on 9/16/2010 10:29:00 PM (view original):
jtrinsey makes a decent point. The one time I sat down at a cash game in a casino, I was relieved of my $40 pretty quick. I learned to never try that again, and to stick with my home game. Is that what we want in HBD?

Bingo. Trade rape only hurts your league in the long-term, which is why I agree with the sentiment not to offer a trade that you would veto. I'm a selfish bastard, so I don't care about ruining somebody else's enjoyment of the game (because they are all big boys who can take care of themselves), but screwing over a n00b can cause them to not want to return the next year, which hurts my league in the long-term. I'd rather "baby" them a little bit until they get their feet underneath them and then will want to stick with it and be a productive member of the league.

Then again... if somebody lets themselves get trade raped, are they really ever going to turn out to be a solid player. I mean, there's an entire mentor thread where somebody would just need to take 12 seconds and ask a veteran player. So, I guess that's the flip side of the argument.

9/16/2010 10:40 PM (edited)

iain

Posts: 1864 (0)

Hall of Famer

35 1 1 18 1 279

Prospect

Posted by plague on 9/16/2010 7:21:00 PM (view original):
Posted by deanod on 9/16/2010 7:12:00 PM (view original):
Posted by plague on 9/16/2010 7:09:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 9/16/2010 7:05:00 PM (view original):
So, even though they're plunking down real money and spending real time, it's OK to take advantage of them because they don't know any better? That's your defense? And we're supposed to believe you wouldn't do the same in real life?

Is that because you're afraid someone would beat the living dogshit out of you if you ripped them off and they realized it?
I don't care if you believe it or not. If I am playing a game in real life I have no problem ripping them off within the game.. I am actually bigger than most people, I don't really have a fear of getting my *** kicked, plus *** kicking generally went out with High School.
Please. You would cry like a ***** if you were legitimately confronted with a real life asskicking.
That goes along with your judgmental narcissistic personality. You have no idea what I am like in real life.

9/16/2010 10:40 PM

plague

Posts: 2330 (0)

Hall of Famer

18 1 201 602 203

Prospect

Posted by tecwrg on 9/16/2010 10:15:00 PM (view original):
Posted by plague on 9/16/2010 8:07:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 9/16/2010 7:52:00 PM (view original):
If you trade someone a pile of turds for a stud, it's no different than selling a broken watch. It's a simple case of "Buyer Beware". The n00b should have known better as should have the purchaser of the watch. Again, the difference is doing it face to face. You don't have the heart, for lack of a better word, to screw someone out of $25 when you're looking them in the face. I'm not saying that's a bad thing, ripping someone off isn't an admirable trait, but, because you can't do it face to face, it makes you less manly than you've been pretending to be.
Again Mike, I have tried to say this over and over. I don't look at real life dealings the same as I do a game. You pay $25 to play the game, when you do that you should expect to play the game and everything that is involved in that game, when I am new to a game I do not expect you or anyone else to give me special treatment.

When you hand someone a broken watch for $25 under the premise that it is not broken, then you are unethical and committing a illegal act against the laws of the United States. It's just not the same analogy.

I differentiate my perception between a game and real life. It has nothing to do with being a man.
Plague shows here that he lives in a different reality than most other people.

The $25 the n00b spends on a season of HBD may be worth exactly the same as the $25 that they might spend on buying a broken watch. Just because YOU differentiate one as fundamentally different from the other does not mean that everybody else sees them as fundamentally different as well. If I pay $25 for a watch only to find out it's broken, I'm going to be ******. Most likely, I'm not going to buy from that seller again. Likewise, if I pay $25 to play an internet game and find out that I'm being blatantly taken advantage of by somebody much more experienced than me, just because they can, I'm also going to be ******. Most likely, I might not want to play that internet game again. That hurts the HBD community as a whole. As a member of the HBD community, I'm not too thrilled too see this going on.

I get what you're saying about not being babied, learning the hard way, etc. But going out of your way and acting as if you're actually proud and completely justified in sticking it to n00bs really reeks, and says a lot about you as a person. Not that I think it really matters to you, because apparently you seperate your online persona from your real-life persona. Kind of like a Jekyll and Hyde thing. I'm not quite sure most people do that.

I give you credit, I think your post is pretty right on. I disagree with some parts of it, but it was well thought out and well presented.

It has nothing to do with pride or going out of your way its about playing the game. I am not proud or ashamed for getting the better of a trade with a inexperienced player.

I am not sure if my online persona is different, but how I play games is different than how I react in real life, thats why the $25 watch/HBD analogy does not work for me, because its 2 different things,$25 just gives you the right to sit at the game, the rules are still the same, buying a broken watch under the pretense that its not broken is deception, no deception in a person accepting a trade. ....

I would hope that just because you played a game and got your butt kicked by a more experienced player that you did not just give up and go away, from my experience that type of person never excels at games. Somehow I think you would pick yourself up and learn from your mistakes and come back with a improved game plan, I don't see you as a quitter.

9/17/2010 7:42 AM

plague

Posts: 2330 (0)

Hall of Famer

18 1 201 602 203

Prospect

Posted by tecwrg on 9/16/2010 9:54:00 PM (view original):
Posted by plague on 9/16/2010 7:09:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 9/16/2010 7:05:00 PM (view original):
So, even though they're plunking down real money and spending real time, it's OK to take advantage of them because they don't know any better? That's your defense? And we're supposed to believe you wouldn't do the same in real life?

Is that because you're afraid someone would beat the living dogshit out of you if you ripped them off and they realized it?
I don't care if you believe it or not. If I am playing a game in real life I have no problem ripping them off within the game.. I am actually bigger than most people, I don't really have a fear of getting my *** kicked, plus *** kicking generally went out with High School.
Just catching up after a fairly busy day and evening. This was my favorite plague post today.

"I'm big 'n strong and ain't 'fraid o' nobody!"

I am not saying no one scares me. If Randy Couture was in front of me and he wanted to kick my *** I am sure I would be worried. But this is not High School anymore and those things don't happen, and because of my size your average person usually does not try and intimidate me. I am not trying to say I am some bad *** stud.

9/17/2010 7:50 AM

plague

Posts: 2330 (0)

Hall of Famer

18 1 201 602 203

Prospect

Posted by jtrinsey on 9/16/2010 10:40:00 PM (view original):
Posted by shobob on 9/16/2010 10:29:00 PM (view original):
jtrinsey makes a decent point. The one time I sat down at a cash game in a casino, I was relieved of my $40 pretty quick. I learned to never try that again, and to stick with my home game. Is that what we want in HBD?
Bingo. Trade rape only hurts your league in the long-term, which is why I agree with the sentiment not to offer a trade that you would veto. I'm a selfish bastard, so I don't care about ruining somebody else's enjoyment of the game (because they are all big boys who can take care of themselves), but screwing over a n00b can cause them to not want to return the next year, which hurts my league in the long-term. I'd rather "baby" them a little bit until they get their feet underneath them and then will want to stick with it and be a productive member of the league.

Then again... if somebody lets themselves get trade raped, are they really ever going to turn out to be a solid player. I mean, there's an entire mentor thread where somebody would just need to take 12 seconds and ask a veteran player. So, I guess that's the flip side of the argument.

The poker situation was the one I was going to bring up next. I play a good amount of poker. Sometimes I get brave and get a little above my head and find I am just not ready for the next level.

I agree with the players who allow themselves to get taken by veterans in trades. Those that cry and give up are generally poor at games and will always be fish. Some learn from their mistakes and become quality players. The part that has not been mentioned in my opinion what hurts the world is that super teams get developed this way, that is why I consider the difference between a good world and a bad world is good worlds will actively veto trades, while bad worlds allow these trades to go through. There is a system already in place but many people refuse to use the system and they would rather complain later..... I try to tell new players that when a veteran who understand how the game is played offers a rookie a trade, who do you think is going to get the better of the trade? Time in and time out I see rookies ignore advice from veterans and accept trades that are a disadvantage for them.

9/17/2010 8:34 AM (edited)

MikeT23

Posts: 58012 (0)

Hall of Famer

87 1 47 1 189

Prospect

Without delving into all the good points that were made in my absence, you really have three options when playing in worlds with n00bs.

1. Help them. Offer advice and guide them thru their first experience in HBD(or their 2nd/3rd experience if they still don't get "it").
2. Ignore them.   Let someone else help them.   After all, it's not really your responsibility to make sure they understand the consequences of their actions.
3. Abuse them.   They paid their money to play a game. Let them play and learn from their mistakes.

In my mind, #1 is the best option.   Helping them out will make them better owners and won't hurt the world.   In fact, it will probably help the world. Better owners = better worlds.   #2 isn't too bad. Not everyone who plays the game is an "active" member of the chat/forum.   So, even if you are, you're doing nothing different than those who aren't.   #3 is the worst.   They have their new game and they're excited to get started. They're going to do something. You're taking advantage of their eagerness/ignorance.   You've hurt their team, and undoubtedly, the world.   Sure, they learn from their mistakes.   They also know they've damaged their team and, in the current state of HBD, know damn good and well they can drop this team and pick up another.

My first piece of advice to any n00b who asks is "If you're not sure, don't do it.    And, if it's your first season, you're not sure."    I've found, while seeking a world I want to make my permanent 3rd world, that a lot of owners with experience, 5-15 seasons, are still learning the basics.    Last year, an owner with 6 seasons(IIRC) was shopping an aging stud hitter.   His team had been real uneven(50 wins, 70 wins, 50 wins) so I assumed he was learning and was going to rebuild with youth.   I inquired, assuming he was seeking prospects.   Nope, he wanted BL-level SP.   So I think he's got a plan to win.   I check his team.    It's a 50 win team.   Take that hitter out of the line-up and he can't score. Pitching won't matter.   I decide he doesn't really understand the game yet and end the talks.  Not sure if he dealt the guy but he wins 50 again.   Some people don't quite get "it".   Taking advantage of them is wrong.

9/17/2010 8:38 AM

Forums

Hold the Ace SP Prospect in AAA, 3rd Pro Season? Topic

Search Criteria