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MikeT23
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When pitchers get pulled during no-hitters, it already seems realistic.   Can you provide some examples of MLB pitchers who exceeded their pre-designated pitch counts in order to get a no-hitter?
1/24/2011 8:32 PM
timf
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Mike I've already explained why it isn't realistic. The only time a pitcher gets pulled during a no-hitter is injury related.
Some examples of pitchers going over pitch counts.
Edwin Jackson 149 pitches
Sandy Koufax 138 pitches
Randy Johnson 138 pitches
Bud Smith 134 pitches
Dwight Gooden 134 pitches
Kent Mercker 131 pitches
Jon Lester 130 pitches
Tommy Greene 130 pitches
The first example is the easiest to point out as going over pitch count but these are all good examples of what I'm talking about.
1/24/2011 8:56 PM
MikeT23
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How do you know they went over their pitch counts?
1/24/2011 8:59 PM
tecwrg
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Seriously, one of the "problems" with asking for this is that IF we were givien the "leave the pitcher in if he's throwing a no-hitter" option, then somebody else will want an option for  "leave the pitcher in if he's throwing a shutout", or ""leave the hitter in if he has a shot at the cycle".  Where does it stop?

In the context of the game, no-hitters are a statistical anomoly.  You don't get an extra bonus in the win column if you get one.  While they may be "fun", they provide nothing more than trivial value to a 162 game season.  The downside of allowing SIMMY to override pre-set pitch counts, i.e risk of injury or excessive fatigue leading into the next scheduled start for that pitcher, far outweigh the benefits, i.e. meaningless trivia.
1/24/2011 9:05 PM
mbriese
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Posted by tecwrg on 1/24/2011 9:05:00 PM (view original):
Seriously, one of the "problems" with asking for this is that IF we were givien the "leave the pitcher in if he's throwing a no-hitter" option, then somebody else will want an option for  "leave the pitcher in if he's throwing a shutout", or ""leave the hitter in if he has a shot at the cycle".  Where does it stop?

In the context of the game, no-hitters are a statistical anomoly.  You don't get an extra bonus in the win column if you get one.  While they may be "fun", they provide nothing more than trivial value to a 162 game season.  The downside of allowing SIMMY to override pre-set pitch counts, i.e risk of injury or excessive fatigue leading into the next scheduled start for that pitcher, far outweigh the benefits, i.e. meaningless trivia.
+1. While it may add more realism to the game, I don't think it's needed. There is no way to make the game 100% realistic as well as enjoyable.
1/24/2011 9:11 PM
timf
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OK, how about you show me one example of a time an injury-free pitcher was pulled during a no-hitter because of a high pitch count? You want to tear everything down but you have no evidence to back up your point. I have shown evidence and you still want more. Show me something to back yourself up because I've looked and the only instances I can find of a pitcher being pulled in the midst of a no-hitter is for health reasons and two occasions where the team was losing and a pinch-hitter was brought in.

1/24/2011 9:13 PM
tecwrg
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Why do you need no-hitters so badly?
1/24/2011 9:16 PM
mbriese
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Posted by timf on 1/24/2011 9:13:00 PM (view original):

OK, how about you show me one example of a time an injury-free pitcher was pulled during a no-hitter because of a high pitch count? You want to tear everything down but you have no evidence to back up your point. I have shown evidence and you still want more. Show me something to back yourself up because I've looked and the only instances I can find of a pitcher being pulled in the midst of a no-hitter is for health reasons and two occasions where the team was losing and a pinch-hitter was brought in.

I will produce said information as soon as you can find a fielding instructor that was paid $1 million a year more than any other coach on the payroll.
1/24/2011 9:18 PM
timf
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tec they aren't 'needed' but they are a part of MLB and if they want to call HBD a simulation, it needs to be as real as possible. I think they could improve it is all I'm saying.
mbriese, I'm just going to ignore your pointless comment that has nothing to do with what we are talking about. Plus, I'm pretty sure you will never be able to find what I asked Mike to find.
1/24/2011 9:25 PM
mbriese
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Posted by timf on 1/24/2011 9:25:00 PM (view original):
tec they aren't 'needed' but they are a part of MLB and if they want to call HBD a simulation, it needs to be as real as possible. I think they could improve it is all I'm saying.
mbriese, I'm just going to ignore your pointless comment that has nothing to do with what we are talking about. Plus, I'm pretty sure you will never be able to find what I asked Mike to find.
Just like you'd never be able to find what I asked to find, yet it's a commonplace in many HBD leagues. Call it a "pointless comment" if you like, but including an option to ensure your pitchers get credit for no hitters isn't the only non-realistic part of HBD, and it's probably the one with the smallest actual effect on game results. Having to pay $1.5-3 million for a fielding instructor (often more than I'll spend on a hitting or pitching coach) is an unrealistic feature that I'd like fixed LONG before they fix your little statistical request.
1/24/2011 9:29 PM
MikeT23
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Posted by timf on 1/24/2011 9:13:00 PM (view original):

OK, how about you show me one example of a time an injury-free pitcher was pulled during a no-hitter because of a high pitch count? You want to tear everything down but you have no evidence to back up your point. I have shown evidence and you still want more. Show me something to back yourself up because I've looked and the only instances I can find of a pitcher being pulled in the midst of a no-hitter is for health reasons and two occasions where the team was losing and a pinch-hitter was brought in.

I'm not arguing for change.  You haven't proven that a single pitcher has exceeded his pre-determined pitch count in order to get a no-hitter.
1/24/2011 9:32 PM
bighead34
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Posted by timf on 1/24/2011 9:13:00 PM (view original):

OK, how about you show me one example of a time an injury-free pitcher was pulled during a no-hitter because of a high pitch count? You want to tear everything down but you have no evidence to back up your point. I have shown evidence and you still want more. Show me something to back yourself up because I've looked and the only instances I can find of a pitcher being pulled in the midst of a no-hitter is for health reasons and two occasions where the team was losing and a pinch-hitter was brought in.

it's not exactly what you are looking for, but CC Sabathia was pitching a no-hitter against Tampa Bay early in the season (last year or the year before, i can't remember)...ultimately it got broken up in the 8th inning, but he was already fast approaching his absolute maximum pitch count (around 110 pitches if i remember correctly), and Joe Girardi said after the game that he would not have let him come out for the 9th even if the no-no had been intact....i remember the media be incredulous about his response and they brought it up again and he swore up and down that he would have pulled him
1/24/2011 9:52 PM
MikeT23
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I WAS AT THAT GAME!!!!

1/24/2011 9:54 PM
timf
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Since they don't publish pitch count targets it's impossible to say for sure that any of those guys went over their pitch counts but I feel pretty confident that Edwin Jackson's max pitch count was well below the 149 he threw to no-hit the Rays last season.

1/24/2011 9:59 PM
shobob
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I can't believe that people are arguing about this.  As far as I know, it is the manager's job to maximize wins for his team in real life too, but you don't see real life ML pitchers getting pulled 8.1 or 8.2 innings into a no hitter due to pitch counts.  I know it's not a big deal, I know that the whole point is to win championships, and it's a team game, etc, etc.  But I'd rather see my fake baseball pitcher go slightly over his set pitch count to get a no hitter, even if it means a slightly elevated risk of injury.
1/24/2011 10:05 PM (edited)
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