I have a hard time ranking short relievers.    Not the "slam the door shut" guy with 80+ control, splits, pitches but the less stellar guy with 70+ splits/control and pitches at 80/75.    A guy like Hardball Dynasty – Fantasy Baseball Sim Games - Player Profile: Pinky Hubbard at the start of S19.   He'll do well enough but he'll only give you 45-50 innings. 

Do they have more value than a SP/LR who'll give you 150 innings of 1.50 WHIP and 4.80 ERA?
More or less value than a 1B who'll rake lefties while playing mediocre 1B?
A defensive SS who'll OPS .550? 
A catcher with 80+ D ratings across the board but can't hit?

I've been projecting them as 4th/5th round picks, the end of the line for BL potential, but I'm not sure about it.    FWIW, they're falling behind the mediocre SP/LR and in front of the other three types I posted.

Thoughts?

You'll put the obvious caveats in here
but....

I find that I can get a ML reliever with a late first round/early 2nd round pick, which is mocked at the time, then 2-3 seasons down the road I'll get 2-3 offers a year for said reliever for players drafted earlier than said reliever.

Or, you'll see someone offer $5M over 3 years for a developed version of said reliever.

So; I think relievers are under valued in the draft, and probably in the internationals as well. At the very least, they are awesome trade bait.

Eg; the only two players on my team playing well, by two set up A guys; drafted 24th and 34th overall.

That's actually how I prefer to acquire them.   Throw ins in a larger trade or acquire them in FA(although not at 5m a year). 

Yea, but what's available there? At 25-40, you can have the 10th-12th best position player, the 10th-12th best starter or the 2nd-4th best reliever.

I looked quickly at the top 40 in the Coop draft. Not one single reliever, I think.

Now look at what was drafted 39th and 40th. Would you take the best reliever available over those 2? I rest my case.

You seem to be missing the point with your last two posts.   "Best" doesn't mean "slam the door shut".     I think you draft that guy at 25 without blinking.  I'm talking about a SuA who'll give you 50 innings of 1.25 WHIP and 3.75+ ERA.   I'll take the 12th best SP or 12th best position player over that guy all day. 

I get that.

What I'm saying is, slam the door shut IS available at 25-40, because everyone is going after 12th best position player or 12th best starter.

Cooperstown's draft this season was a bad example for what you're saying, death.  It was incredibly weak at the "Slam the door shut" reliever position, at least at the college level.  Based on what I can find at the High School level, it was weak there as well. 
Bo Bruske was my highest ranked reliever at #25 on my board (and was the highest drafted reliever), and he falls somewhere between Mike's middle-of-the-road reliever category and your slam the door shut.
In my ranking strategy, the guys Mike is talking about get mixed in with the defensive SS's, C's, and flawed 1B, ahead or behind depending on just how good they are (in Control, Splits, Vel/GB/FB, & pitches).  At that level, I don't worry much about if they are a 35 or 75 inning a year guy... I just severely degrade anyone with drastically low stamina or durability.

I would not call Hardball Dynasty – Fantasy Baseball Sim Games - Player Profile: Joel James or Hardball Dynasty – Fantasy Baseball Sim Games - Player Profile: Ernie Stewart as "slam the door shut" guys. 

I tend to also rank the guys Mike's talking about toward the end of my "ML possibility" group, with the defensive/no-hit SS's and C's.  Few of them actually ever make it onto my ML roster, however.  I usually end up trading for or signing better options.

I think the main value in a guy like you posted above is in how you use him.  Put him in a SetupA role, where he'll only come in during high leverage situations, so that all of his 40-50 innings are in valuable situations, vs the Long A type who may pitch 70 innings, but half of those are in games where you've got a big lead, or are behind by a bunch of runs and the game is all but over.  I'd rather have the limited innings 1.25 WHIP reliever over the 80 inning 1.50 WHIP reliever.

I'd rank a guy like that ahead of a guy who you'd project to be no better than your typical #4/#5 starter.  you can find a #4/#5 for fairly cheap on the FA market, after initial signings most seasons.  I'd rank him behind a great defensive SS or C who's bats you think are good enough to play on a regular basis, but ahead of the great defensive SS or C who's bat you believe to limit him to defensive replacement type player.  I'd say less value vs the 1b who will rake vs Lefties, and play mediocre defense, and ahead of the long reliever type who will never be durable/stamina enough to start, nor dominate enough to play a setup role for the reason listed above.

Posted by MikeT23 on 3/2/2011 11:12:00 AM (view original):
I would not call Hardball Dynasty – Fantasy Baseball Sim Games - Player Profile: Joel James or Hardball Dynasty – Fantasy Baseball Sim Games - Player Profile: Ernie Stewart as "slam the door shut" guys. 

No, nor would I.

Stewart is an innings eater, eliminate him. The other set up A I was talking about was Alex James.

But, in the case of Joel James; would you take 100-120 innings of 3 - 3.25 ERA at draft position 34 over what's at 34 in ANY of your leagues?

Most would say no. And then they would offer player(s) drafted earlier for him in a trade (if he were younger).

I'm not saying I'm bang on right, I'm just saying that when looking for value in draft or internationals, I think relievers are the best value. 1 through 25 speak for themselves, it's the next 60 slots where I think you can nab quality.

I mean, look at our 88 and 89th overall. They both have warts, but I bet they both see ML time.

Jeez.  100-125 innings is not 45-50 innings.   Apples and oranges.   Do I take a guy who gives me 100 innings of 3.25 ERA over a guy who gives me 150 innings of 4.80 ERA(like I listed in POST #1)?  Sure.