2 Good pitches vs 1 better one Topic

zbrent716
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Posted by pstrnutbag44 on 8/6/2011 3:32:00 AM (view original):
Ones you've been in even, Z...don;t be coy, you know it's true. PC is overrated.
Just checked your Major League team - you led the World in ERA once, and you have never used a primary catcher with a PC below 50. Hyperbole much?
8/6/2011 1:54 PM
pstrnutbag44
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Hyperbole some....but I never, ever said WORLD...I clearly said LEAGUE, Z....sheesh....and then there's Clarkson, where I know the C Suzuki (who used to be mine before I shipped him off to LA) also maintains a Top 5 staff. So let's see here, let me try and word myself very, very carefully for the semantic argument addicts out there:

 

PC is overrated. There are many instances where you can find, in many leagues, pitching staffs that lead their league (AL/NL) with C's that have below average PC. You will be surprised how many C's you can find across HBD with very good CERA's and sub-50 PC.

Is that better, dialogue officer, sir?

8/6/2011 4:44 PM
zbrent716
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Posted by pstrnutbag44 on 8/6/2011 4:45:00 PM (view original):

Hyperbole some....but I never, ever said WORLD...I clearly said LEAGUE, Z....sheesh....and then there's Clarkson, where I know the C Suzuki (who used to be mine before I shipped him off to LA) also maintains a Top 5 staff. So let's see here, let me try and word myself very, very carefully for the semantic argument addicts out there:

 

PC is overrated. There are many instances where you can find, in many leagues, pitching staffs that lead their league (AL/NL) with C's that have below average PC. You will be surprised how many C's you can find across HBD with very good CERA's and sub-50 PC.

Is that better, dialogue officer, sir?

My bad, you did say league.

And the number of times you led the league in ERA in Major Leagues (in your across-the-board pitchers' park) with a sub-50 PC catcher would be...

Still zero.

And in our league in Major Leagues, there is only one example of a sub-50 PC catcher with a staff to the best team ERA, and that was a guy who was part of a platoon where he actually caught fewer innings. And it was also in Seattle, which is among the very best pitchers' parks.

There may be something to the idea that PC is overrated, there may not be - but a catcher with below 50 PC leading a staff that leads a league in ERA is the clear exception in most well-run Worlds.
8/6/2011 5:31 PM
nfet
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fwiw, Philly has been a top 5 ERA team in Major Leagues (led the world in S14) for the past 4 seasons with a 46 rated PC C.  
8/6/2011 8:20 PM
pstrnutbag44
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Yeah, but Z probably wants to ignore that fact too.... ;-)
8/6/2011 8:21 PM
pstrnutbag44
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Posted by zbrent716 on 8/6/2011 5:31:00 PM (view original):
Posted by pstrnutbag44 on 8/6/2011 4:45:00 PM (view original):

Hyperbole some....but I never, ever said WORLD...I clearly said LEAGUE, Z....sheesh....and then there's Clarkson, where I know the C Suzuki (who used to be mine before I shipped him off to LA) also maintains a Top 5 staff. So let's see here, let me try and word myself very, very carefully for the semantic argument addicts out there:

 

PC is overrated. There are many instances where you can find, in many leagues, pitching staffs that lead their league (AL/NL) with C's that have below average PC. You will be surprised how many C's you can find across HBD with very good CERA's and sub-50 PC.

Is that better, dialogue officer, sir?

My bad, you did say league.

And the number of times you led the league in ERA in Major Leagues (in your across-the-board pitchers' park) with a sub-50 PC catcher would be...

Still zero.

And in our league in Major Leagues, there is only one example of a sub-50 PC catcher with a staff to the best team ERA, and that was a guy who was part of a platoon where he actually caught fewer innings. And it was also in Seattle, which is among the very best pitchers' parks.

There may be something to the idea that PC is overrated, there may not be - but a catcher with below 50 PC leading a staff that leads a league in ERA is the clear exception in most well-run Worlds.
I don;t see how you can call it the clear exception....data please, since you're so on point, sir. ;-)
8/6/2011 8:22 PM
pstrnutbag44
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No? No data, Z? C'mon...you were jumping all over that hyperbole of mine.....let's see your data! ;-)
8/9/2011 5:23 PM
moethedog
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I only have some anecdotal evidence, but over the last two years my principal catcher (2396inning/exactly 1198 each season) has a PC of 51.  His cERA over that time is 4.01.

His defensive backup is a guy with a PC of 88 (and a much better arm) (531 innings/270.2 and 260.1 over the two innings).  He has a cERA of 3.99 over the same time.

I've had decent starters for the first guy and decent setup and closer for the 2nd.  PC hasn't had much influence, well none.  But I still like a BU catcher witha good PC.  You guys have corrupted me.
8/10/2011 11:18 AM
tommy_cian
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moe, I could be wrong here so...

I bring in my defensive catcher as a replacement in the 8/9th inning normally, so he usually is used with my bp more than the occasional start, I'd bet that he gets 40% of his innings with my bullpen compared to my starter who gets 25% (or whatever the numbers are), so its hard to compare that.  I've actually tried to figure out the weighted avg of my two catchers over the season by pitcher, but it was a pain in the ***...

8/10/2011 5:18 PM
zbrent716
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Major leagues has had 30 completed league-seasons. 15 years x two leagues each season. In that time, exactly 1 league-season had a team lead the league in ERA with a sub-50 PC primary catcher. And in that one season (S14 by the Phillies) the primary catcher had a PC of 46 (so certainly not "WELL below" 50) and a backup catcher (with 500.1 innings caught) boasting a PC of 92.

One out of 30 seems to be a relatively clear exception - especially given the complete absence of any evidence to the contrary.
8/11/2011 12:29 AM
a_ersberg
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What about the pitcher with pitches of 80/72/32/70?  Those give me some heartburn with that low pitch mixed in.
8/11/2011 12:34 PM
pstrnutbag44
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Posted by zbrent716 on 8/11/2011 12:29:00 AM (view original):
Major leagues has had 30 completed league-seasons. 15 years x two leagues each season. In that time, exactly 1 league-season had a team lead the league in ERA with a sub-50 PC primary catcher. And in that one season (S14 by the Phillies) the primary catcher had a PC of 46 (so certainly not "WELL below" 50) and a backup catcher (with 500.1 innings caught) boasting a PC of 92.

One out of 30 seems to be a relatively clear exception - especially given the complete absence of any evidence to the contrary.
Cherry picking....I want to see REAL data. Show me how much difference 1 point of PC makes, and show your work.
8/11/2011 6:03 PM
zbrent716
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Posted by pstrnutbag44 on 8/11/2011 6:03:00 PM (view original):
Posted by zbrent716 on 8/11/2011 12:29:00 AM (view original):
Major leagues has had 30 completed league-seasons. 15 years x two leagues each season. In that time, exactly 1 league-season had a team lead the league in ERA with a sub-50 PC primary catcher. And in that one season (S14 by the Phillies) the primary catcher had a PC of 46 (so certainly not "WELL below" 50) and a backup catcher (with 500.1 innings caught) boasting a PC of 92.

One out of 30 seems to be a relatively clear exception - especially given the complete absence of any evidence to the contrary.
Cherry picking....I want to see REAL data. Show me how much difference 1 point of PC makes, and show your work.
I'm sorry, but as I said before - 

"There may be something to the idea that PC is overrated, there may not be - but a catcher with below 50 PC leading a staff that leads a league in ERA is the clear exception in most well-run Worlds."

It's just that when you overstate the case so falsely, you mislead people. PC may be "overrated" (of course, that begs the question how highly is it "rated") but there's no evidence it is as meaningless as you make it sound, and the limited evidence available shows some correlation (if not causation) between above the average PC (50+) and pitching success.
8/11/2011 6:22 PM
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