Posted by tufft on 8/31/2011 1:53:00 PM (view original):

Posted by deathinahole on 8/31/2011 8:26:00 AM (view original):
Everything I've seen in favour of this is basically asking for the game to be dumbed down, and is always a reaction to taking one up the pooper on the final cycle.

I don't want this dumbed down. Period.
And really, how hard is it now?

Do I have the top bid? No. Make it higher or get out.
Do I have the top bid? Yes. Has he signed? No. Has he not signed and is it late in the process? Yes. Therefore, someone else is in the running, so I better make my bid higher or I'm taking a chance.

I have yet to see someone stroll in here and say "I signed this FA on the last cycle, and I just don't feel right about it"

IMO, the way it works now is as dumbed down as it could possibly be.

If there are 3 good SPs in the FA market, we have to blindly pick one to go after.  How dumb is that?

And if there are 3 others that would help, we can't put a bid on them at a lower price unless we pass on all of the top options.  How dumb is that?

In real world bidding, it's possible to put out 4 year, $60MM offers to 3 different players (or anything else) with the condition that the first one who accepts gets the deal and that pulls the other deals off the table from the others.

Allowing that kind of FA bidding in HBD would make FA bidding more fun, more realistic, and add strategy.  The only strategy now is blind luck.

Posted by 98greenc5 on 8/31/2011 2:05:00 PM (view original):
There are ways to bid big amounts on multiple guys to get a feel for things, but it takes a little work

1) Make a big offer

2) Wait a cycle to see if that is good for #1 offer. Make note of results

3) Withdraw offer and return to step 1 for next FA

In half a day you migh glean some information. This isn't perfect of course, but it is hardly "blindly" picking a FA to bid on

A modified approach is to pick a FA, bid up for a few cycles to see where the top offer is, and move on quickly if you never get there. Same thing if everytime you get top offer you get trumped the next cycle.

Posted by sergei91 on 8/31/2011 8:43:00 AM (view original):

Posted by Jtpsops on 8/29/2011 11:41:00 PM (view original):
...about FA.

It's seriously time to start letting us offer more than our available cap space, even if it's a pre-determined amount like $10mil.  In Puckett we recently had a solid FA class. I went after a pitcher who was probably the 5th or 6th most sought after FA.  I had other guys targeted, but a limited budget, so I put it all towards this guy. I was leading for him for the last 10-12 cycles, then some guy sneaks in at the end with a better offer, the FA snags it and I'm screwed. No other FA are left to sign. And the guy who beat me out likely lost out on one or two of the bigger name guys, and came to my guy, who I had been pursuing since the beginning, and snagged him. I didn't have that luxury.

There is nothing competitively fair about that setup.  It comes down to luck of the draw - who can sneak their offer in at the right moment.  I thought stuff like team, competitiveness, etc. were supposed to factor in, but he signed for a few million more dollars (which I could have matched) to go to a worse team.

what would having offers more than available cap space do to make it so you don't get outbid on a free agent?

As I said, if I have $15mil to bid and I invest it all in the guy I want, then I could offer that additional $10mil to another free agent (a fall back). And there is risk involved to keep things honest: if that $10mil guy signs first, then I'm SOL on the better player.

And this does happen in MLB.  Sometimes teams end up SOL (as Mike pointed out with the Yankees this season), but more often than not, guys will hold out and wait for the top guy or two to sign because a) that sets the market, b) there's more demand for their services, and c) their value goes up.

I'm not talking dumbing down the game or making it more "fun".  But as has already been pointed out, the way it is now is just luck.  Yes, there are ways to minimize the likelihood of getting screwed, but you still pretty much have to ID one guy you want and go after him and hope that either a) he signs with you or b) he signs elsewhere/the price gets to high and you drop out while other FA are still available.  The market for FA and who is leaning where is far easier to guage in MLB.

Posted by tufft on 8/31/2011 3:31:00 PM (view original):
>> Wow, that's some awesome analysis. You've completely changed my mind.
>> Seriously, read what you wrote. I'm pretty sure a group of chattering monkeys would sit there and go "WTF?"

deathinahole, when your only reply is name calling & personal attacks that have nothing to do with the topic, you've lost the debate.

WIS isn't going to do anything to change anything, so this is just debate of ideas.

I get that you like it the way it is.  It's a very dumb process.  It's based more on luck and knowing how to game the system than strategy.

No other auction process works like this, so you and other experienced players have an advantage.

You think you know how to game the current algorithm to freeze the process, drive up prices, jump in at the final 1/2 cycle with a higher bid, and other stuff that you probably think benefits you.

That takes a lot of time, every day for many days in a row, but you have that time, so that's OK with you.

I'm sure there are a lot of ways to game the system I and other owners whose lives don't entirely revolve around HBD haven't learned and probably never will.

I proposed something that more closely models the real world.  You don't like it.  End of debate.  Thanks for playing.

Posted by Jtpsops on 8/31/2011 5:06:00 PM (view original):

Posted by sergei91 on 8/31/2011 8:43:00 AM (view original):

Posted by Jtpsops on 8/29/2011 11:41:00 PM (view original):
...about FA.

It's seriously time to start letting us offer more than our available cap space, even if it's a pre-determined amount like $10mil.  In Puckett we recently had a solid FA class. I went after a pitcher who was probably the 5th or 6th most sought after FA.  I had other guys targeted, but a limited budget, so I put it all towards this guy. I was leading for him for the last 10-12 cycles, then some guy sneaks in at the end with a better offer, the FA snags it and I'm screwed. No other FA are left to sign. And the guy who beat me out likely lost out on one or two of the bigger name guys, and came to my guy, who I had been pursuing since the beginning, and snagged him. I didn't have that luxury.

There is nothing competitively fair about that setup.  It comes down to luck of the draw - who can sneak their offer in at the right moment.  I thought stuff like team, competitiveness, etc. were supposed to factor in, but he signed for a few million more dollars (which I could have matched) to go to a worse team.

what would having offers more than available cap space do to make it so you don't get outbid on a free agent?

As I said, if I have $15mil to bid and I invest it all in the guy I want, then I could offer that additional $10mil to another free agent (a fall back). And there is risk involved to keep things honest: if that $10mil guy signs first, then I'm SOL on the better player.

And this does happen in MLB.  Sometimes teams end up SOL (as Mike pointed out with the Yankees this season), but more often than not, guys will hold out and wait for the top guy or two to sign because a) that sets the market, b) there's more demand for their services, and c) their value goes up.

I'm not talking dumbing down the game or making it more "fun".  But as has already been pointed out, the way it is now is just luck.  Yes, there are ways to minimize the likelihood of getting screwed, but you still pretty much have to ID one guy you want and go after him and hope that either a) he signs with you or b) he signs elsewhere/the price gets to high and you drop out while other FA are still available.  The market for FA and who is leaning where is far easier to guage in MLB.

Posted by MikeT23 on 8/31/2011 3:35:00 PM (view original):
How about "Submit one offer and highest offer wins"?   No time-consuming countering.  Just make your best offer and find out who wins 24 hours later.

Posted by sergei91 on 9/1/2011 7:46:00 AM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 8/31/2011 3:35:00 PM (view original):
How about "Submit one offer and highest offer wins"?   No time-consuming countering.  Just make your best offer and find out who wins 24 hours later.

i know some people who have done that. offer max contract and hope that another team with a better record last season doesn't also offer a max contract. you're almost guaranteed to get the guy. whether he's worth the max contract is up to you to figure out/deal with.