Which on for Cy Young Topic

Posted by MikeT23 on 2/22/2012 11:20:00 AM (view original):
1.  I haven't.
2.  Yes.  Math and probability suggest they pitched equally for all pitchers.  I was being generous by giving them 20%.
3.  It's 140 accumulated innings.  Less than 10% of an entire season.  I'm fine with using them also because of #2.

Ok lets focus on 2.   

Give me reasons these guys would pitch, outside of a) blowout, b) everybody is tired (or injury replacement).  Then tell me how often you attribute it to a vs. b.
2/22/2012 11:30 AM
Posted by jvford on 2/22/2012 11:17:00 AM (view original):
Posted by gjello10 on 2/22/2012 11:03:00 AM (view original):
Posted by jvford on 2/22/2012 11:00:00 AM (view original):
For starters, this is wrong:

"1.  Balls not in play (K, BB, HBP, HR)  These are almost 100% under the pitcher's control."
Assuming both pitchers faced roughly similar hitters (on aggregate over the course of a long season), then it's not wrong.  His conclusions are still wrong, but that statement is correct in the way he meant it.
No it's wrong.  Home Runs are not "almost 100% under the pitcher's control."  Luck plays a HUGE role in the variability of home runs season to season.  Which is why xFIP is used more often than FIP.
I think I mentioned this before, but it would have been better for me to have said that they don't involve fielders or that the pitcher is almost 100% involved.  The fact does remain the pitchers do have a HR skill, it's just that one season is too small a sample to accurately see that skill.  You actually need multiple seasons to start to remove the random variation.  And xFIP and FIP are just as good at predicting a pitcher's ERA in the following season, so what difference does it make which one you like better?

Bobzilla
2/22/2012 11:31 AM
Posted by oriolemagic on 2/22/2012 11:30:00 AM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 2/22/2012 11:20:00 AM (view original):
1.  I haven't.
2.  Yes.  Math and probability suggest they pitched equally for all pitchers.  I was being generous by giving them 20%.
3.  It's 140 accumulated innings.  Less than 10% of an entire season.  I'm fine with using them also because of #2.

Ok lets focus on 2.   

Give me reasons these guys would pitch, outside of a) blowout, b) everybody is tired (or injury replacement).  Then tell me how often you attribute it to a vs. b.
Sure.  They're on the pitching staff.  Do you carry pitchers you don't expect to pitch?
2/22/2012 11:34 AM
Posted by gjello10 on 2/22/2012 11:26:00 AM (view original):
Posted by jvford on 2/22/2012 11:17:00 AM (view original):
Posted by gjello10 on 2/22/2012 11:03:00 AM (view original):
Posted by jvford on 2/22/2012 11:00:00 AM (view original):
For starters, this is wrong:

"1.  Balls not in play (K, BB, HBP, HR)  These are almost 100% under the pitcher's control."
Assuming both pitchers faced roughly similar hitters (on aggregate over the course of a long season), then it's not wrong.  His conclusions are still wrong, but that statement is correct in the way he meant it.
No it's wrong.  Home Runs are not "almost 100% under the pitcher's control."  Luck plays a HUGE role in the variability of home runs season to season.  Which is why xFIP is used more often than FIP.
Well, this is semantics because I also prefer xFIP to FIP, but random variance over a small sample size is not the same thing as lack of control over the variable. Over a large enough sample, assuming 2 pitchers face similar quality aggregate hitters, a difference in HR/9 is basically entirely down to the pitcher, the same way K/9 and BB/9 are, and in a way that BABIP is not due to fielding.
I guess my point is that we are using a small sample size (season) and luck involved in HR/FB% is as stark as the luck involved in the aspects supposedly not under the pitcher's control.


2/22/2012 11:36 AM
Posted by gjello10 on 2/22/2012 11:26:00 AM (view original):
Posted by jvford on 2/22/2012 11:17:00 AM (view original):
Posted by gjello10 on 2/22/2012 11:03:00 AM (view original):
Posted by jvford on 2/22/2012 11:00:00 AM (view original):
For starters, this is wrong:

"1.  Balls not in play (K, BB, HBP, HR)  These are almost 100% under the pitcher's control."
Assuming both pitchers faced roughly similar hitters (on aggregate over the course of a long season), then it's not wrong.  His conclusions are still wrong, but that statement is correct in the way he meant it.
No it's wrong.  Home Runs are not "almost 100% under the pitcher's control."  Luck plays a HUGE role in the variability of home runs season to season.  Which is why xFIP is used more often than FIP.
Well, this is semantics because I also prefer xFIP to FIP, but random variance over a small sample size is not the same thing as lack of control over the variable. Over a large enough sample, assuming 2 pitchers face similar quality aggregate hitters, a difference in HR/9 is basically entirely down to the pitcher, the same way K/9 and BB/9 are, and in a way that BABIP is not due to fielding.
I will add a few things.

1.  It's better to look at K/PA, BB/PA, and HR/FB.
2.  Park effects also contribute to a pitcher's HR/FB or HR/9.  
3.  BABIP does have a skill, but it is smaller than the three true outcomes.  A pitcher's defense behind them could make a large impact on that.  Just look at the Orioles from the late 1960s and 1970s.

Bobzilla
2/22/2012 11:37 AM
Posted by MikeT23 on 2/22/2012 11:34:00 AM (view original):
Posted by oriolemagic on 2/22/2012 11:30:00 AM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 2/22/2012 11:20:00 AM (view original):
1.  I haven't.
2.  Yes.  Math and probability suggest they pitched equally for all pitchers.  I was being generous by giving them 20%.
3.  It's 140 accumulated innings.  Less than 10% of an entire season.  I'm fine with using them also because of #2.

Ok lets focus on 2.   

Give me reasons these guys would pitch, outside of a) blowout, b) everybody is tired (or injury replacement).  Then tell me how often you attribute it to a vs. b.
Sure.  They're on the pitching staff.  Do you carry pitchers you don't expect to pitch?
Also, you can check the game logs to see when they pitched.  If you've done that, go ahead and say so.   I also hope, if you did, that you recorded their stats when relieving Sheldon.   If you did that and found that they gave Sheldon 81 innings worse than .288/1.47/4.56, please say so.  You'll have a very good bullet in your gun that I can't believe you haven't shot.
2/22/2012 11:37 AM
But, keep in mind, that Sheldon started 34 games.   He left about 100 innings on the table.   Ducey started 36 so he left 38 unaccounted for.
2/22/2012 11:51 AM
Posted by JFerg on 2/22/2012 11:37:00 AM (view original):
Posted by gjello10 on 2/22/2012 11:26:00 AM (view original):
Posted by jvford on 2/22/2012 11:17:00 AM (view original):
Posted by gjello10 on 2/22/2012 11:03:00 AM (view original):
Posted by jvford on 2/22/2012 11:00:00 AM (view original):
For starters, this is wrong:

"1.  Balls not in play (K, BB, HBP, HR)  These are almost 100% under the pitcher's control."
Assuming both pitchers faced roughly similar hitters (on aggregate over the course of a long season), then it's not wrong.  His conclusions are still wrong, but that statement is correct in the way he meant it.
No it's wrong.  Home Runs are not "almost 100% under the pitcher's control."  Luck plays a HUGE role in the variability of home runs season to season.  Which is why xFIP is used more often than FIP.
Well, this is semantics because I also prefer xFIP to FIP, but random variance over a small sample size is not the same thing as lack of control over the variable. Over a large enough sample, assuming 2 pitchers face similar quality aggregate hitters, a difference in HR/9 is basically entirely down to the pitcher, the same way K/9 and BB/9 are, and in a way that BABIP is not due to fielding.
I will add a few things.

1.  It's better to look at K/PA, BB/PA, and HR/FB.
2.  Park effects also contribute to a pitcher's HR/FB or HR/9.  
3.  BABIP does have a skill, but it is smaller than the three true outcomes.  A pitcher's defense behind them could make a large impact on that.  Just look at the Orioles from the late 1960s and 1970s.

Bobzilla
The key with BABIP is that we all recognize it contains 3 components, both in real life and HBD:

1) Skill of the pitcher (again- ignoring batter skill assuming similar quality batters faced)

2) White Noise due to fielding

3) White Noise due to random variance

The concept behind FIP/xFIP is that the White Noise on BABIP is greater than the value of the skill data. Those Orioles clubs are a great example of the truth behind this in real life. In HBD, I really think you have to live with the White Noise because there is less of it and more skill data contained in the BABIP info than in real life.

Regardng replacement level, one issue is salary demands. At the end of Spring Training, unsigned ML players fall into 2 basic categories: (a) guys who will sign for something close to the minimum (say, $600k or less against a min around $425k), and the occassional aging star who would rather sit on his couch than play unless offerred a really nice opportunity (Roy Oswalt may end up in this boat, as he seems intent on either getting $7.5m+ to play for a contender, or sitting at home and playing with his kids). There's not a lot in between.

In HBD, at the end of Spring Training, there's not a lot out there for near the minimum ($325k). But there is often a bunch of league-average-ish talent to be had in the $750k-2.5m range. There are also some above average Type A guys out there at reasonable prices who just don't get signed because of the comp pick, which doesn't happen in MLB for a variety of reasons. So what is a Replacement Player in HBD? How can we define that?

Along these lines, by the way, I should note that the salary difference between Sheldon and Ducey is large enough for Sheldon's owner to easily pay for those 81 innings at league average rates, I would think.

Another major replacement level issue is that I would suggest that overall League Average for SPs differs from League Average for RPs more than in real life. Good RP innings are fairly easy to find, and the best and most durable RPs can log nearly 200 innings. I think it would be pretty tough to look at replacement level without seperating SP and RP numbers.
2/22/2012 12:04 PM

SANITY CHECK TIME!!!

Why is the discussion of Cy Young Award turning to the performance of other pitchers, i.e. the bullpens, on the staffs of the candidates?  Shouldn't the candidates be judged/evaluated on their own merits?

2/22/2012 12:10 PM
Simply because orioles insists that those 81 innings cannot possibly have been covered by a semi-competent pitcher.    Therefore, Ducey was the better pitcher.
2/22/2012 12:15 PM
Posted by gjello10 on 2/22/2012 12:04:00 PM (view original):
Posted by JFerg on 2/22/2012 11:37:00 AM (view original):
Posted by gjello10 on 2/22/2012 11:26:00 AM (view original):
Posted by jvford on 2/22/2012 11:17:00 AM (view original):
Posted by gjello10 on 2/22/2012 11:03:00 AM (view original):
Posted by jvford on 2/22/2012 11:00:00 AM (view original):
For starters, this is wrong:

"1.  Balls not in play (K, BB, HBP, HR)  These are almost 100% under the pitcher's control."
Assuming both pitchers faced roughly similar hitters (on aggregate over the course of a long season), then it's not wrong.  His conclusions are still wrong, but that statement is correct in the way he meant it.
No it's wrong.  Home Runs are not "almost 100% under the pitcher's control."  Luck plays a HUGE role in the variability of home runs season to season.  Which is why xFIP is used more often than FIP.
Well, this is semantics because I also prefer xFIP to FIP, but random variance over a small sample size is not the same thing as lack of control over the variable. Over a large enough sample, assuming 2 pitchers face similar quality aggregate hitters, a difference in HR/9 is basically entirely down to the pitcher, the same way K/9 and BB/9 are, and in a way that BABIP is not due to fielding.
I will add a few things.

1.  It's better to look at K/PA, BB/PA, and HR/FB.
2.  Park effects also contribute to a pitcher's HR/FB or HR/9.  
3.  BABIP does have a skill, but it is smaller than the three true outcomes.  A pitcher's defense behind them could make a large impact on that.  Just look at the Orioles from the late 1960s and 1970s.

Bobzilla
The key with BABIP is that we all recognize it contains 3 components, both in real life and HBD:

1) Skill of the pitcher (again- ignoring batter skill assuming similar quality batters faced)

2) White Noise due to fielding

3) White Noise due to random variance

The concept behind FIP/xFIP is that the White Noise on BABIP is greater than the value of the skill data. Those Orioles clubs are a great example of the truth behind this in real life. In HBD, I really think you have to live with the White Noise because there is less of it and more skill data contained in the BABIP info than in real life.

Regardng replacement level, one issue is salary demands. At the end of Spring Training, unsigned ML players fall into 2 basic categories: (a) guys who will sign for something close to the minimum (say, $600k or less against a min around $425k), and the occassional aging star who would rather sit on his couch than play unless offerred a really nice opportunity (Roy Oswalt may end up in this boat, as he seems intent on either getting $7.5m+ to play for a contender, or sitting at home and playing with his kids). There's not a lot in between.

In HBD, at the end of Spring Training, there's not a lot out there for near the minimum ($325k). But there is often a bunch of league-average-ish talent to be had in the $750k-2.5m range. There are also some above average Type A guys out there at reasonable prices who just don't get signed because of the comp pick, which doesn't happen in MLB for a variety of reasons. So what is a Replacement Player in HBD? How can we define that?

Along these lines, by the way, I should note that the salary difference between Sheldon and Ducey is large enough for Sheldon's owner to easily pay for those 81 innings at league average rates, I would think.

Another major replacement level issue is that I would suggest that overall League Average for SPs differs from League Average for RPs more than in real life. Good RP innings are fairly easy to find, and the best and most durable RPs can log nearly 200 innings. I think it would be pretty tough to look at replacement level without seperating SP and RP numbers.
I agree with just about everything you're saying.  I haven't tried to use FIP to argue that Ducey was better.  Also, if you're saying that RPs in this simulation are better than their couterparts in real life, all that does is raise the replacement level of RP.  Oh, and for the replacement level I used in my analysis, that was just for SPs.  In MLB, RP do perform better than SP, and this results in a higher replacement level for them.

Bobzilla
2/22/2012 12:16 PM
And, truthfully, there is some merit to that.   If a guy can pitch great for 7 but has to turn the game over to a crappy bullpen, he's less valuable to me than the guy who throws 9 really good innings.

I don't think that's case here though.   orioles has already said that Honolulu had one of the best staffs in his world.   Seems highly unlikely that those 100 innings were taken by the 4 incompetent pitchers who only accounted for 140 total innings.   Additionally, the remainder of the staff were considerably better than the .288/1.47/4.56 so there would be some balance even if the Incompetent 4 somehow managed to get half of those innings.
2/22/2012 12:22 PM
Bobzilla,

I'm not in any way questioning your knowledge of these #s- I bet it would be very enjoyable to discuss Saber with you (topic- A.J. Burnett: washed up, or major bounce back candidate? xFIP has liked him pretty well the past 2 years, including a 3.74 in 2011. Is Yankees' putrid up-the-middle defense combined with Burnett's GB inducing tendencie and a splash of bad luck on HR/FB responsible for his fall from grace?)

My point on the difference between RPs and SPs in HBD vs real life is that the "workhorse" SP has a lot less value here than in real life, because all bullpens carry extra capacity and it's pretty easy to cover league average SP #s out of the bullpen.

Regarding capacity, as an example I have 1 team with a 10-man staff (5 man bullpen) that I'm convinced has 200-300 innings of unused above-league-average capacity. But I can't cut down to a 4 man bullpen without creating major sequencing issues leaving me with a dozen games a season where the pitcher needed to come out, but no fresh pitcher was available in the bullpen. Also, it would leave me without a spot starter/injury option for the rotation. So Sheldon over Ducey would be a no-brainer for me.
2/22/2012 12:41 PM
Posted by gjello10 on 2/22/2012 12:41:00 PM (view original):
Bobzilla,

I'm not in any way questioning your knowledge of these #s- I bet it would be very enjoyable to discuss Saber with you (topic- A.J. Burnett: washed up, or major bounce back candidate? xFIP has liked him pretty well the past 2 years, including a 3.74 in 2011. Is Yankees' putrid up-the-middle defense combined with Burnett's GB inducing tendencie and a splash of bad luck on HR/FB responsible for his fall from grace?)

My point on the difference between RPs and SPs in HBD vs real life is that the "workhorse" SP has a lot less value here than in real life, because all bullpens carry extra capacity and it's pretty easy to cover league average SP #s out of the bullpen.

Regarding capacity, as an example I have 1 team with a 10-man staff (5 man bullpen) that I'm convinced has 200-300 innings of unused above-league-average capacity. But I can't cut down to a 4 man bullpen without creating major sequencing issues leaving me with a dozen games a season where the pitcher needed to come out, but no fresh pitcher was available in the bullpen. Also, it would leave me without a spot starter/injury option for the rotation. So Sheldon over Ducey would be a no-brainer for me.
The scenario you describe is certainly possible.  My only question would concern that actual ease of getting league average from the RP or the possibility of getting above-average performance.  I still think they're basically of equal value, unless it truly is easy to get above average performance from your bullpen to replace those innings and have no impact on the bullpen's performance otherwise.

As for Burnett, I'd predict that he'll have an ERA less than the last two years, probably around 4.50 or so.  I don't know if I'd call it bad luck with his HR/FB ratio, because he has played awhile now and it is above average.  So either that's just part of his makeup as a pitcher or maybe pitching in Toronto and New York hurt him as those ballparks don't play to his strengths.  Especially Yankee Stadium with all the left-handers that would be in the lineup against him.   Moving out of the AL East may help him and moving to the NL should also help.  But he's not exactly young anymore, so I'd honestly be surprised if his ERA dropped below 4.00.

Bobzilla
2/22/2012 1:26 PM
Posted by tecwrg on 2/22/2012 12:10:00 PM (view original):

SANITY CHECK TIME!!!

Why is the discussion of Cy Young Award turning to the performance of other pitchers, i.e. the bullpens, on the staffs of the candidates?  Shouldn't the candidates be judged/evaluated on their own merits?

Don't start them up again!!!
2/22/2012 3:46 PM
◂ Prev 1...21|22|23|24 Next ▸
Which on for Cy Young Topic

Search Criteria

Terms of Use Customer Support Privacy Statement

© 1999-2026 WhatIfSports.com, Inc. All rights reserved. WhatIfSports is a trademark of WhatIfSports.com, Inc. SimLeague, SimMatchup and iSimNow are trademarks or registered trademarks of Electronic Arts, Inc. Used under license. The names of actual companies and products mentioned herein may be the trademarks of their respective owners.