Posted by dmurphy104 on 3/30/2012 11:40:00 AM (view original):
agree with greeny.

With a 55/125/195/280 MWR

season 1 63-ok
season 2 54-out by 1 game for the 1 season rule, and 8 games for the 2 season rule.

Minimum win rules would have helped.

I'd gladly respond to this...since Reino feels the need to call out my team in that league.  I took over that team that had 4 different owners in four seasons prior, won 47,66,52,47 in the seasons prior.  That team was used and abused and was void of any ML talent and had a only a little MiL talent.  It took me two seasons to just get that team set up to turn it around and get talent in the system.

Tanking is not a hard and fast rule...you can not just look at wins and say so and so is tanking.  While 54 wins is bad it is not uprecedented even in real life.  That team won 73 wins that next season, obviously my goal wasn't to tank my way to rebuild.  There is not black and white way to find tankers.  Wins, budgets just don't do it.  You need look into the owner and the team.

Yeah, wins/budget actually does do it.    An owner winning 50 and decreasing his budget isn't paying quality BL players.  He's attempting to stockpile young talent via the draft/IFA at the expense of the BL team for a few seasons.   It's just a fact.  All the bluster in the world about rebuilding doesn't mean a thing.  You don't have to take a step back to get back to respectability.

1	reddevil19	ML	72-90	.444	4th	No	No
2	reddevil19	ML	58-104	.358	4th	No	No
3	mmacharg	ML	42-120	.259	4th	No	No
4	MikeT23	ML	66-96	.407	3rd	No	No
5	MikeT23	ML	76-86	.469	2nd	No	No
6	MikeT23	ML	75-87	.463	2nd	No	No
7	MikeT23	ML	92-70	.568	2nd	Yes	No	no	no	no
8	MikeT23	ML	90-72	.556	1st	No	Yes	no	no	no
9	MikeT23	ML	93-69	.574	1st	No	Yes	yes	no	no
10	MikeT23	ML	91-71	.562	1st	No	Yes	no	no	no
11	MikeT23	ML	92-70	.568	1st	No	Yes	yes	yes	yes
12	MikeT23	ML	107-55	.660	1st	No	Yes	yes	no	no
13	MikeT23	ML	89-73	.549	2nd	Yes	No	yes	yes	yes

1	halo23	ML	61-101	.377	4th	No	No
2	shesaid	ML	74-88	.457	3rd	No	No
3	shesaid	ML	78-84	.481	4th	No	No
4	RubeRant	ML	72-90	.444	4th	No	No
5	kingdean	ML	65-97	.401	4th	No	No
6	MikeT23	ML	75-87	.463	4th	No	No
7	MikeT23	ML	89-73	.549	3rd	No	No
8	MikeT23	ML	91-71	.562	2nd	No	No
9	MikeT23	ML	101-61	.623	2nd	Yes	No	no	no	no
10	MikeT23	ML	109-53	.673	1st	No	Yes	yes	yes	yes
11	MikeT23	ML	107-55	.660	1st	No	Yes	yes	yes	no
12	MikeT23	ML	101-61	.623	1st	No	Yes	yes	no	no
13	MikeT23	ML	113-49	.698	1st	No	Yes	no	no	no
14	MikeT23	ML	100-43	.699	-	-	-	-	-	-

To be fair, only one person knows if an owner is tanking.    And he always says "No, I'm not!!"   However, "failure to compete" is just tanking prettied up.   And, without question, that's what you were doing.

Hell, add this one to the list:

9	newarkwilder	ML	65-97	.401	3rd	No	No
10	newarkwilder	ML	86-76	.531	2nd	No	No
11	newarkwilder	ML	72-90	.444	4th	No	No
12	newarkwilder	ML	69-93	.426	3rd	No	No
13	newarkwilder	ML	77-85	.475	2nd	No	No
14	mayottek	ML	78-84	.481	3rd	No	No
15	MikeT23	ML	91-71	.562	2nd	Yes	No	no	no	no

My point is simple.   You can come in and play it one of two ways.   1.  Cut payroll and build your team.   1.  Build your team. 

I have no trouble with someone cutting payroll if he can be competitive while doing it.  But, 9 times out of 10, his intentions aren't to be competitive "right now".   It's to collect young, cheap talent at the expense of BL wins.

Posted by MikeT23 on 3/30/2012 1:38:00 PM (view original):
Yeah, wins/budget actually does do it.    An owner winning 50 and decreasing his budget isn't paying quality BL players.  He's attempting to stockpile young talent via the draft/IFA at the expense of the BL team for a few seasons.   It's just a fact.  All the bluster in the world about rebuilding doesn't mean a thing.  You don't have to take a step back to get back to respectability.

1	reddevil19	ML	72-90	.444	4th	No	No
2	reddevil19	ML	58-104	.358	4th	No	No
3	mmacharg	ML	42-120	.259	4th	No	No
4	MikeT23	ML	66-96	.407	3rd	No	No
5	MikeT23	ML	76-86	.469	2nd	No	No
6	MikeT23	ML	75-87	.463	2nd	No	No
7	MikeT23	ML	92-70	.568	2nd	Yes	No	no	no	no
8	MikeT23	ML	90-72	.556	1st	No	Yes	no	no	no
9	MikeT23	ML	93-69	.574	1st	No	Yes	yes	no	no
10	MikeT23	ML	91-71	.562	1st	No	Yes	no	no	no
11	MikeT23	ML	92-70	.568	1st	No	Yes	yes	yes	yes
12	MikeT23	ML	107-55	.660	1st	No	Yes	yes	no	no
13	MikeT23	ML	89-73	.549	2nd	Yes	No	yes	yes	yes

1	halo23	ML	61-101	.377	4th	No	No
2	shesaid	ML	74-88	.457	3rd	No	No
3	shesaid	ML	78-84	.481	4th	No	No
4	RubeRant	ML	72-90	.444	4th	No	No
5	kingdean	ML	65-97	.401	4th	No	No
6	MikeT23	ML	75-87	.463	4th	No	No
7	MikeT23	ML	89-73	.549	3rd	No	No
8	MikeT23	ML	91-71	.562	2nd	No	No
9	MikeT23	ML	101-61	.623	2nd	Yes	No	no	no	no
10	MikeT23	ML	109-53	.673	1st	No	Yes	yes	yes	yes
11	MikeT23	ML	107-55	.660	1st	No	Yes	yes	yes	no
12	MikeT23	ML	101-61	.623	1st	No	Yes	yes	no	no
13	MikeT23	ML	113-49	.698	1st	No	Yes	no	no	no
14	MikeT23	ML	100-43	.699	-	-	-	-	-	-

That isn't accurate.  I graduated three good ML pitchers to the big leagues that were young and cheap that performed.  But has bounced back.  Wins and budget doesn't do it, you need to look at all the factors.  People only use wins and budget cause they are lazy and don't do any research.

Posted by MikeT23 on 3/30/2012 1:57:00 PM (view original):
My point is simple.   You can come in and play it one of two ways.   1.  Cut payroll and build your team.   1.  Build your team. 

I have no trouble with someone cutting payroll if he can be competitive while doing it.  But, 9 times out of 10, his intentions aren't to be competitive "right now".   It's to collect young, cheap talent at the expense of BL wins.

Do some research, ML teams actually employ such a process to cut budget and invest in youth.  There is nothing wrong with not being competitive right now while investing in your future.  I am not saying purposely lose games, there is a difference.  In the numbers above I won 54 game but jumped to 73, 71 wins the next two years.  If I was tanking why wouldn't I just continue to tank?  If that was my approach, while wouldn't I do it through out the whole rebuilding process.  Rather than graduate multiple solid players to the big league team?  That is my point, 1 offs don't tell the story or show an owners true intentions.  If I wanted to tank I would do it throughout the whole life of the rebuild, rather than 1 year.  It was a bad year, but not something that I sustained.  Which to me is the sign of a tanker.

All the bluster in the world about rebuilding doesn't mean a thing. 

As far as "three good ML pitchers to the big leagues that were young and cheap that performed", BL teams are comprised of 25 players.   Three who perform won't get it done.   Your record indicates you know how to play the game.  Would you like me to rip apart one of your 50 win teams and tell you what you DIDN'T do to win games? 

Posted by yanks21 on 3/30/2012 2:22:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 3/30/2012 1:57:00 PM (view original):
My point is simple.   You can come in and play it one of two ways.   1.  Cut payroll and build your team.   1.  Build your team. 

I have no trouble with someone cutting payroll if he can be competitive while doing it.  But, 9 times out of 10, his intentions aren't to be competitive "right now".   It's to collect young, cheap talent at the expense of BL wins.

Do some research, ML teams actually employ such a process to cut budget and invest in youth.  There is nothing wrong with not being competitive right now while investing in your future.  I am not saying purposely lose games, there is a difference.  In the numbers above I won 54 game but jumped to 73, 71 wins the next two years.  If I was tanking why wouldn't I just continue to tank?  If that was my approach, while wouldn't I do it through out the whole rebuilding process.  Rather than graduate multiple solid players to the big league team?  That is my point, 1 offs don't tell the story or show an owners true intentions.  If I wanted to tank I would do it throughout the whole life of the rebuild, rather than 1 year.  It was a bad year, but not something that I sustained.  Which to me is the sign of a tanker.

You collected 2nd, 4th and 1st pick.   You don't have to lose 120 to get 1st pick, you have to lose one more than the other guy.

Now, would you like me to tear apart your 54 win team?  THAT will be my research that you're so big on.

In your 54 win season:

533 AB at the power positions(1B/LF/RF)
Hardball Dynasty – Fantasy Baseball Sim Games - Player Profile: Desi Valentin    
There was no one with better hitting ratings than this: 

46

48

69

49

69

36 errors and 19 negative plays at 2B;
Hardball Dynasty – Fantasy Baseball Sim Games - Player Profile: Andres Santana
70/62 range/glove

32 E, 9 negative in 162 SS starts:
Hardball Dynasty – Fantasy Baseball Sim Games - Player Profile: Brant Gabriel
AS is the only SS rating


The entire team, 104 errors, 76 negative plays.   OPS of .696(worst in league).  ERA of 5.58(2nd only to Durham).

76 innings:  Hardball Dynasty – Fantasy Baseball Sim Games - Player Profile: Raul Ramos
The entire staff is built from castoffs/rejects that would be mop-up men on most teams.

I could go on but this was a brutal display of tanking.

Posted by MikeT23 on 3/30/2012 2:33:00 PM (view original):

In your 54 win season:

533 AB at the power positions(1B/LF/RF)
Hardball Dynasty – Fantasy Baseball Sim Games - Player Profile: Desi Valentin    
There was no one with better hitting ratings than this: 

46

48

69

49

69

36 errors and 19 negative plays at 2B;
Hardball Dynasty – Fantasy Baseball Sim Games - Player Profile: Andres Santana
70/62 range/glove

32 E, 9 negative in 162 SS starts:
Hardball Dynasty – Fantasy Baseball Sim Games - Player Profile: Brant Gabriel
AS is the only SS rating

Not worth buying there wasn't.  And that is 1 player, I had other guys that flat out under performed their rating that season.  Bottom line, I don't purposely lose games, I do focus my resources on future players when I rebuild, but I don't purposely put a team out their to lose.  As well, again you gave no response to the biggest indicator that I wasn't a tanker, its that my follow up season was 17 wins better.  All while I was rebuilding.  So if I was going to tank, why only do it for 1 season?  The answer I wouldn't.

This wasn't a response?   "You collected 2nd, 4th and 1st pick.   You don't have to lose 120 to get 1st pick, you have to lose one more than the other guy."

Posted by MikeT23 on 3/30/2012 2:24:00 PM (view original):

Posted by yanks21 on 3/30/2012 2:22:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 3/30/2012 1:57:00 PM (view original):
My point is simple.   You can come in and play it one of two ways.   1.  Cut payroll and build your team.   1.  Build your team. 

I have no trouble with someone cutting payroll if he can be competitive while doing it.  But, 9 times out of 10, his intentions aren't to be competitive "right now".   It's to collect young, cheap talent at the expense of BL wins.

Do some research, ML teams actually employ such a process to cut budget and invest in youth.  There is nothing wrong with not being competitive right now while investing in your future.  I am not saying purposely lose games, there is a difference.  In the numbers above I won 54 game but jumped to 73, 71 wins the next two years.  If I was tanking why wouldn't I just continue to tank?  If that was my approach, while wouldn't I do it through out the whole rebuilding process.  Rather than graduate multiple solid players to the big league team?  That is my point, 1 offs don't tell the story or show an owners true intentions.  If I wanted to tank I would do it throughout the whole life of the rebuild, rather than 1 year.  It was a bad year, but not something that I sustained.  Which to me is the sign of a tanker.

You collected 2nd, 4th and 1st pick.   You don't have to lose 120 to get 1st pick, you have to lose one more than the other guy.

Now, would you like me to tear apart your 54 win team?  THAT will be my research that you're so big on.

I inherited one of those picks...and again it is a one off season.  Talk about small sample size research.  Consider my 130 HBD seasons as a collective whole and they show that I don't tank.

Posted by MikeT23 on 3/30/2012 2:36:00 PM (view original):
This wasn't a response?   "You collected 2nd, 4th and 1st pick.   You don't have to lose 120 to get 1st pick, you have to lose one more than the other guy."

I just responded.  I inherited once of those picks.

Catching is interesting.
Hardball Dynasty – Fantasy Baseball Sim Games - Player Profile: Juan Segui
Hardball Dynasty – Fantasy Baseball Sim Games - Player Profile: Ron Lamb

Lamb starts every game.  Comparable defensively but I'd take Sequi at the plate.