That is all that I am saying.  It is their right.  Wasn't defending or anything.

It's also my right to call out a tanker in the forums, so why the bugaboo?

Just wanted to get the other perspective in is all.

What the heck, I figured I should weigh in on this.

People should have a concrete set of ethics based on principles they can articulate. Here's mine, for what it's worth.

I do not go to the extreme of "if your AAA prospects are better than your ML players, you should immediately promote them"  Not me, when I'm rebuilding. I am going to groom my stud prospects slowly, which means a full five seasons in the minors.

BUT: while I may have the lowest payroll in the world, I am going to do my best to field a competitive Major League team within those parameters. There are plenty of cheap FA that are competitive ML players.  Nothing wrong with lowering your payroll and rebuilding, but I think it is totally unprincipled and unethical to put LowA level players in the majors to aim for the first draft pick.  I'm glad I learned that quick and am in worlds--mainly the trifecta of Doubleday, BPF and Shoeless Joe--where that sort of foolishness is not tolerated.

For one thing,  fans would revolt if, in real life, the Marlins fielded a team to try and lose 130 games in the name of "rebuilding." If I fielded a legitimate ML team and to the first round pick, hey, great. But refusing to sign FA and attempting to be as bad as possible is unethical in my book.  It's definitely not enough just to say: "Well, my stamina is good."

I currently have the lowest payroll in Shoeless Joe with some great prospects on their way up the ladder. But right now, my ML team is 31-33. I still managed to get my number one rated guy with the 11th pick in the draft. It's not unethical to rebuild and lower your payroll way down. But that's as far as it should go. You should field the best ML team you can within those parameters.

So, the only answer is a MWR and strict anti-tanking rules.  Most worlds that knowledgeable and conscientious owners would want to join have those in place.

The yahoos can go to the public worlds where they can try and out-swindle other like-minded yahoos.

Keeping a player in the minors for 5 full seasons is kind of a waste.

Draft a player at 18.
He goes on the 40 at 21. 
If you hold him back 20 games at age 21, you control him til he's 32.   21,20 games.   22-24, minimum.  25-26, arb.   27-31, 5 year contract.   At 32, he might be a type A that someone will sign but he will defintely be declining before whatever contract he gets, if he gets something in the range of his demands, is complete..  

That's not to say you're tanking if you hold a guy back 5 seasons, I'm just pointing out that you're needlessly burning a season or two of prime years in the minors and possibly costing yourself a comp pick 11 seasons from now. 

Anytime a prospect on my 40 is noticably better than a guy he can replace on the ML roster, I bring him up and put him in the lineup/rotation/bullpen.  I can start getting value out of him now, and if he's still progressing, he'll only get better.

Posted by MikeT23 on 6/26/2012 10:48:00 AM (view original):
Keeping a player in the minors for 5 full seasons is kind of a waste.

Draft a player at 18.
He goes on the 40 at 21. 
If you hold him back 20 games at age 21, you control him til he's 32.   21,20 games.   22-24, minimum.  25-26, arb.   27-31, 5 year contract.   At 32, he might be a type A that someone will sign but he will defintely be declining before whatever contract he gets, if he gets something in the range of his demands, is complete..  

Okay Mike T, I am still learning the game and appreciate the opportunity to learn something.

I do not understand your statement: "If you hold him back 20 games at 21 ..."

Do you mean "hold him back " in the minors, or promote him to the ML for 20 games?

This is how I am interpreting your post. Please correct me where I am wrong.

So you handle a stud prospect thusly:

18- Rookie
19-Low A
20-High A
21-20 games in AA or AAA and then promote to majors.

So the 20 games in the minors means that you then have two more FULL seasons at the minimum before his arb years kick in.

If this is the case, my stud players in this particular world have been in AA now for 60 games.  Should I go ahead and bring them to the bigs and put them on the 40?  Will I still get the full benefit of what you outlined?

Of course, my thinking is: when rebuilding, I load a team up with prospects and put some "ringers" on the roster so the prospects get maximum development time by playing all the playoff series'.  I personally would not be very concerned about "controlling the player til he's 32."

But if I'm interpreting you right, your outline has merit.

Please let me know if  1)  I am reading your post correctly and 2) Where do I go from here with these 4th year stud prospects.  If it was you, would you immediately promote them?

yeah, I don't think people understand development is most notably related to playing time and coaches.  Most likely your ML coaches are better than everyone else and so if a guy can start in the majors, he possibly could develop better than in the minors...

I'm going to jump in on this in regards to the timeline, because I'm fairly certain Mike will say the same thing:
18 - Rookie
19 - LoA or HiA depending on the coaches
20 - AA
21 - AAA for the start of the season and if he's ML ready, promote after the 20 game mark so it doesn't count against his option years.

Al, my main question at this point is:

I have passed the "20 game mark" in Shoeless Joe.  The season is about 60 games old. 

But that doesn't matter, does it?  If I promote these guys now, this partial ML season will NOT count against the guy's 3 full seasons at the minimum and 1st 2 arb years, right?

I believe you are correct.

I bumped up a couple threads that ask this question.  I am not an expert on it and have to look it up every time it comes up.

In other words, if you promote them BEFORE the 20 games, that season counts as a full season against their minimum and arb.

But if you wait until ANYTIME after that 20 games, the partial season with them in the ML would NOT count toward that-whether it was the 20th game or the 150th game that you promoted them.

(Of course, with me not knowing that before this, I may not have enough payroll to do absorb the salary increase, but that's my problem.  Oh well, live and learn.)

Answered your sitemail.