2009-10 Players - Page 13 - SimLeague Basketball

flipper

Posts: 33 (0)

Veteran

1 22 2 1

Prospect

Posted by seble on 6/30/2010 12:38:00 PM (view original):
Still in progress, no update right now.

I think Seble must work public relations for BP in his down time.

6/30/2010 1:17 PM

abrondon

Posts: 25 (0)

Hall of Famer

18 118 6 2 5

Prospect

I can understand the frustration, believe me. But in Seble's defense, I think he used to be one of the most active WIS admin with regard to seeking user input, but things took a turn for the negative and then WIS NBA updates went way down. Not sure there was a connection, but if so, the sensitive human side of me doesn't blame him for pulling back a bit. Although I must admit that the keyboard-courage side of me still wants to hurl complaints. In the meantime I'll just be glad that the WIS NBA hasn't yet devolved into the WIS NFL status. At least we can still search and sort by things like, say, statistics. But I digress.

6/30/2010 2:39 PM

detlef

Posts: 160 (0)

Hall of Famer

7 15 11 26

Prospect

I agree with abrondon - why would seble want to talk on here when he just gets bashed by people for everything he says?

6/30/2010 3:41 PM

eleibowitz

Posts: 3680 (0)

Hall of Famer

1 289 10 4 15

Rookie

Posted by abrondon on 6/30/2010 2:39:00 PM (view original):
I can understand the frustration, believe me. But in Seble's defense, I think he used to be one of the most active WIS admin with regard to seeking user input, but things took a turn for the negative and then WIS NBA updates went way down. Not sure there was a connection, but if so, the sensitive human side of me doesn't blame him for pulling back a bit. Although I must admit that the keyboard-courage side of me still wants to hurl complaints. In the meantime I'll just be glad that the WIS NBA hasn't yet devolved into the WIS NFL status. At least we can still search and sort by things like, say, statistics. But I digress.

The issue I have and Seble brought this on himself, he did not set the correct expectations. Don't say 2-3 weeks, when its really 2-3 months. I think if he said the latter everyone would be fine with it. He kind of brought this on himself

6/30/2010 4:14 PM

chris_snid

Posts: 403 (0)

Hall of Famer

97

Prospect

I think seble is big enough to take care of himself. after all he is the one responsible for maintaining the WIS NBA sim. But, I'm sure he is thankfull that abrondon and detlef two allstars with NO ACTIVE teams in the nba sim for coming to his defense.

And by the way I'm not bashing seble . I would like an ETA on this update, so i can finalize any decision on continuing to play my progressive leagues or retiring from WIS.

6/30/2010 4:31 PM

ashamael

Posts: 12930 (0)

Hall of Famer

544 25

All Star

abrondon's actually in a league with me right now, just on an alias name.

leibo: yeah, seble kind of did bring it on himself. He kind of usually does. That's why he probably only posts kind of rarely. lol

6/30/2010 4:42 PM

uofa

Posts: 156 (0)

Hall of Famer

36 41 8 1

Prospect

Posted by seble on 6/30/2010 12:38:00 PM (view original):
Still in progress, no update right now.

Oh, okay.

6/30/2010 5:23 PM

longtallbrad

Posts: 4790 (0)

Hall of Famer

432 51

Pro

Posted by eleibowitz on 6/30/2010 4:14:00 PM (view original):
Posted by abrondon on 6/30/2010 2:39:00 PM (view original):
I can understand the frustration, believe me. But in Seble's defense, I think he used to be one of the most active WIS admin with regard to seeking user input, but things took a turn for the negative and then WIS NBA updates went way down. Not sure there was a connection, but if so, the sensitive human side of me doesn't blame him for pulling back a bit. Although I must admit that the keyboard-courage side of me still wants to hurl complaints. In the meantime I'll just be glad that the WIS NBA hasn't yet devolved into the WIS NFL status. At least we can still search and sort by things like, say, statistics. But I digress.
The issue I have and Seble brought this on himself, he did not set the correct expectations. Don't say 2-3 weeks, when its really 2-3 months. I think if he said the latter everyone would be fine with it. He kind of brought this on himself

I assume he believed the earlier estimate was reasonably accurate when he posted. I've been late with various things myself. I agree with detlef and abrondon. It's ridiculous to expect to get better customer service by semi-publicly ranting against someone you want better communication from. Most people don't respond well to that kind of garbage and seble's been pretty professional about it over the past couple of years.

My bet is that the delay has a lot to do with other WIS games (that generate more revenue) trumping the NBA game yet again. It's a lower priority, plain and simple, and those of us who spend a lot of time and money on this site are painfully familiar with that reality.

I still jive with what ash has written a couple times in this thread - I'd rather live with the extra time it takes to get a bigger, better upgrade to the game than get the 09-10 players now but wait another year (or more) for meaningful changes (e.g., defensive ratings, cost of offense).

6/30/2010 5:39 PM

detlef

Posts: 160 (0)

Hall of Famer

7 15 11 26

Prospect

Posted by chris_snid on 6/30/2010 4:31:00 PM (view original):
I think seble is big enough to take care of himself. after all he is the one responsible for maintaining the WIS NBA sim. But, I'm sure he is thankfull that abrondon and detlef two allstars with NO ACTIVE teams in the nba sim for coming to his defense.

And by the way I'm not bashing seble . I would like an ETA on this update, so i can finalize any decision on continuing to play my progressive leagues or retiring from WIS.

It's not so much coming to his defense as just stating a fact of life for people who seem to have trouble understanding it - like longtallbrad said, people don't respond well to other people ranting about how slowly they're doing something, and it's probably a lot easier for seble to just not be vocal than to get into arguments with people who give his employer tens of dollars a month (which, if you'll notice, doesn't sound like much because it isn't much).

6/30/2010 5:53 PM

badja

Posts: 1343 (0)

All Star

43 1

Prospect

Paying customers have a right to point out when WIS does something wrong. Don't you get negative feedback from customers at your job if your company screws up? I certainly do. That's part of the job. Same goes for working until the job gets done. I know I and most here have to do that.
Seble started a thread called "Feedback" last May. Obviously nothing was done in the year+ since he requested the feedback. All we are getting now is position effectiveness that is actually correct- wow what a concept. In the end, they are only taking $$ from their own pockets. I guess I should be glad that I am not tempted to spend real money here!

6/30/2010 9:10 PM

longtallbrad

Posts: 4790 (0)

Hall of Famer

432 51

Pro

I agree on most points, badja. Giving and getting negative feedback (and doing something about it) is part of doing business. It's often a fact of life, in my strong opinion, that negative feedback that's meant to be personally insulting is less likely to produce the desired result.

Actually, my impression is that fairly significant changes are on the way with this upgrade - at least, significant with regard to aspects of the sim I've been kvetching about over the past 18 months or so. We need to see the actual changes to determine if they're as meaningful as I hope they will be, obviously.

But consider the following possibilities:

a) Position effectiveness changes that make it harder for owners to load up unrealistically on rebounds. In my opinion, PFs like the Mailman, Barkley, Brand and C-Webb should not be 100% at SF for any season. They didn't play that position IRL, and for good reason. (McHale is an arguable case since evidently he did at least defend opposing SFs occasionally during his prime.)

b) Changes to certain defensive ratings to make them mirror reality more closely. Some glaring examples of D ratings that stick out like sore thumbs include 08-09 Troy Murphy, and several of Barkley's seasons.

c) Increasing the cost of offense.

That last bit could be huge, potentially. Increasing the cost of scoring (and presumably/hopefully offensive efficiency) could change team-building patterns, especially in open leagues. It may become too expensive to build a competitive team with 700-1000 3PMs, which could mean we start seeing (again, finally) some good players who haven't lent themselves to that mold (e.g., Moncrief, Cheeks).

I'll be grumpy if these changes don't happen, and it would be every bit my right at that point to take my money elsewhere. But if waiting a few days or weeks longer for those changes to be implemented is what it takes to be able to enjoy a more satisfying (and less irksome) game, I'm not too bothered.

6/30/2010 9:57 PM

bkeyser

Posts: 109 (0)

Hall of Famer

171 1

Prospect

hey LTB... you need to quit bringing sane, rational thinking to this forum. we have no time for that here.

7/1/2010 12:04 AM

ashamael

Posts: 12930 (0)

Hall of Famer

544 25

All Star

brad:

a) IIRC, they're actually making PE more loose. I think that everyone in the league will be 100% at two positions... so if that happens, the opposite of what you want is going to take place (more pfs able to play sf; more cs able to play pf)

b) Yeah... Barkley was probably about a 60 at his peak, and most of his "defense" was big play steals/blocks, not tough man defense. He was a better help defender, but as a man defender, he had to be really motivated, which didn't happen often (and still, he had physical limitations that made him not that effective even when he was trying). This impact on the sim is huge (see a & c). Don't even want to talk about Troy Murphy, but it's funny that those two guys are the guys you bring up, because they make up 2/3 of the deadliest front court in the $42M sim right now. Again, see point c.

c) This will change the scope of the sim. Hopefully. Right now, it's incredibly easy to load up on "too much offense" without being penalized for it. Threes are really broken in the sim, so if you load up on paint and threes (my Barkley/Wilt experiment has exploded... so many teams use Barkley/Wilt + three bombers now. It's sad, really) and get more rebounds than your opponent, you win. Rebounds are the most important part right now, but efg% closely follows that, and the biggest effect on efg% is threes. And it really helps that one of your paint monsters can play the 3, gives you lots of boards (esp. on the offensive side) and while he has better defense in the sim than IRL, it's low enough that he's about $2-million cheaper than he should be (Barkley, of course). Throw in your lockdown defender Troy Murphy, and he covers Barkley's weakness of defense (lol). He grabs tons of defensive boards, has a huge efg% (tons of threes) and low tov%. Go ahead and drop $13.5M on 66-67 Wilt... you'll have PLENTY of money to pick up offense in the backcourt. I mean, you can grab 3400 minutes from Glen Rice for $4.6M. Sure, he only has 20 defense but your team will be shooting 55%+ from the field so what does it matter if they shoot 49%? Tons of great PGs available that you can pick up now with all the cash you've got left. You can be completely unoriginal and use Steve Nash. Or maybe Chauncey Billups. Or KJ. Or if you really want to be stupid, 08-09 Jason Kidd! You'll still have plenty of money to spend on back-ups (more threes, please).

Making offense more expensive (threes in particular) will change the entire scope of the sim. This is a good thing. I'm almost tired of paint-monster/bomber teams, but that's what wins.

7/1/2010 5:24 AM

longtallbrad

Posts: 4790 (0)

Hall of Famer

432 51

Pro

Thanks for the reminder about PE, ash. Maybe my hopes there have been naive. I would love to understand better why Karl Malone is thought to be able to play SF, and why uber-wings like Pippen and Hill are penalized at SG.

And yes, I'm most curious/anxious to see the impact of increasing the cost of offense. My most recent ODL team is underwhelming on paper (remember I took Chauncey Billups in the first round of a highly competitive theme league) but ended up going deep in the playoffs. Despite comparative rebounding deficiencies, they win mainly with a ton of 3s. Blech. Enough of that. Defense won championships IRL in most eras of the NBA. I'd love to see that as a more frequent occurrence in this sim (as it was when I first started playing).

7/1/2010 6:36 AM

emarvel3000

Posts: 4 (0)

Rookie

4 1

Prospect

Great points, everyone.

The three point percentages need to be brought back to reality, seems like virtually all players shoot about 5% better on threes than their RL numbers would dictate. In terms of the monster rebounding teams, the o-board loaded likes of Moses, Rodman, and Barkley lineups should in theory be extremely vulnerable to uptempo offenses ... if they're hitting the offensive glass so hard, who's getting back on defense? Nash and Allen? There's a wall of jello for you.

But even aside from user inputs, WIS should have been keenly aware that the current algorithm has issues based on the fact that it picked Portland to dominate the NBA playoffs even though it ran its simulations factoring injuries.

7/1/2010 8:19 AM

Forums

2009-10 Players Topic

Search Criteria