What should they all mean? RATINGS REVISITED Topic

katzphang88
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As Norbert is hurriedly attempting to get the update done for our GD Christmas stocking - I was wondering what all these numbers we describe our players at should all mean. Would we really need to decide if a lineman with 2 speed or a QB with 5 strength but great GI be a worthwhile gamble in the real world? What does our little game percieve a DIII WR with 25 hands to be? A DI DB with 90 speed and 50 technique? WHAT DOES IT ALL MEAN?!?!?!?!?! (Or what should it mean?)

I did a quick stat check on my D1AA linemen over two games. Starters - set on fairly fresh - drives of between 3 to 10 plays - 118 total plays - the 69 stamina OL played 100%, the 32 stamina OL played 94%. WHAT???  Twice+ the rating but only 6% more plays?

We know the recent hub-bub about WR hands (any rating from 2 - 98 is about the same) - and QB strength really isn't a factor - and speed with DE doesn't get you much - and durability really is for ???

So what should it mean? What should be the cores for a DE? a S? a pass blocking OL? a quarterback? Should all the numbers have such a wide variability?

So in the real world - (oh here we go again!) - you can't find a DL that benches 450 (say 90 strength) in DIII? No one any where in DII runs under 10 sec for a 100 meters (90 speed - I have seen this but rarely)? No total football geek QB's in DIII that could have a GI of 80 with a tech of 25 - or visa versa?

So just throwing out a topic. I believe that when the new engine comes out for review, some of these values should be assessed during game play and tightened or loosened to make them believable. But if Norbert gives us the chance for a true beta test - and the game isn't how WE want it - it is our fault then.
8/12/2012 8:52 PM
grindi
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Just to throw this out there.  Shouldn't Tech for a QB mean Accuracy?  Look at all the hubub being made over Tebows' accuracy.  Shouldn't Strength relate to not only how far a QB could complete a pass but on if he can throw an out?  A weak QB should get penalties in trying to go long or throw sideline routes.  As for Hands...Let me remind you of some pretty great WRs with not a lot of speed.  Max McGee, Fred Bilitnikopf, Lance Alworth, Wes Welker.  None of them known for blazing speed but all with GREAT hands and some of the great clutch WRs. 

And how about letting us get our TEs more into the pass game?  I've had some great TEs as I'm sure many others have, and can't get them the ball.

Speed in Linemen needs to mean more.  I've seen guys with 4 SPD get a ton of sacks.  I have had some very quick OLines that evidently couldn't pull their Guards worth a crap to run a power sweep.  I mean really?   A DL with no speed but is a top sacker?  How elusive can a guy be if he can't run?  A guy could have all the moves of Madonna but if he can't get more than 5 steps from the time the ball is hiked and the play is over, so what?  Who's he going to fool? 

While I'm wishing for the moon, I'd also like to see a 1 RB, 2 TE and 2 WR Offensive formation.  Kind of the old double wing but more like the Redskins used with Riggins.  But that is just a personal preference.  I would love to run that and Trips as my offense. 

8/12/2012 10:16 PM
coach_billyb
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My Humble Opinion:
QB : Primary Attributes - TECH (more accuracy than anything), GI (ability to throw to the correct WR), STR (arm strength)
Highly Important - ELU (avoid the rush), SPD, ATH
Moderately Important - HND (Does he fumble when hit/sacked and some what accuracy)
Somewhat Important - STA (Should meen very little for a QB)
Not Very Important - BLK, TKL

RB : Primary Attributes - ELU (eluding tacklers), SPD (break away speed), STR (ability to break tackles and pick up short ydg.)
Highly Important - ATH (overall athletic ability should effect eluding tacklers, catching the ball, break away speed and even breaking tackles, but all to a lessor degree tha  speed, elu, str., hands, etc.)
Moderately Important - HND, TECH, GI
Somewhat Important - BLK, STA
Not Very Important - TKL

More to come later. It's late! (LOL)

8/13/2012 1:40 AM
harriswb3
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This becomes a very interesting discussion, but determining what attributes are "important" for various positions, is much different than what they "mean".

Lets focus on what they "mean".

Example:  Using billyb's comment above, I would disagree in his primary and secondary attributes, (only to make a point).  If I'm looking for a blocking RB to use in my wishbone, I would focus on different primary attributes.

So, just to keep it simple, lets discuss/debate/decide what the attributes "mean".
8/13/2012 9:20 AM
moranis
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Posted by grindi on 8/12/2012 10:16:00 PM (view original):

Just to throw this out there.  Shouldn't Tech for a QB mean Accuracy?  Look at all the hubub being made over Tebows' accuracy.  Shouldn't Strength relate to not only how far a QB could complete a pass but on if he can throw an out?  A weak QB should get penalties in trying to go long or throw sideline routes.  As for Hands...Let me remind you of some pretty great WRs with not a lot of speed.  Max McGee, Fred Bilitnikopf, Lance Alworth, Wes Welker.  None of them known for blazing speed but all with GREAT hands and some of the great clutch WRs. 

And how about letting us get our TEs more into the pass game?  I've had some great TEs as I'm sure many others have, and can't get them the ball.

Speed in Linemen needs to mean more.  I've seen guys with 4 SPD get a ton of sacks.  I have had some very quick OLines that evidently couldn't pull their Guards worth a crap to run a power sweep.  I mean really?   A DL with no speed but is a top sacker?  How elusive can a guy be if he can't run?  A guy could have all the moves of Madonna but if he can't get more than 5 steps from the time the ball is hiked and the play is over, so what?  Who's he going to fool? 

While I'm wishing for the moon, I'd also like to see a 1 RB, 2 TE and 2 WR Offensive formation.  Kind of the old double wing but more like the Redskins used with Riggins.  But that is just a personal preference.  I would love to run that and Trips as my offense. 

I have long felt and have sent many a ticket requesting that the ratings be changed to reflect reality.  So things like Technique should be removed entirely and the specific skills should be inserted in place.  So the QB would have accuracy, passing technique, arm strength, core strength, etc. and a RB would have things like catching, route running, running with and without ball, arm strength, core strength, etc.  The techniques wouldn't change when you changed positions, but the strength, speed, etc. stats would.
8/13/2012 1:25 PM
norbert
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Interesting you bring this up as I was just about to post a status update on the update (see my post on that for more information) and one of the things I was going to address was the change in philosophy on ratings which is part of why its taking so long.

One of the things I want to do with this update is give more unique meaning to the ratings, giving each rating a more definitive purpose in the game.  I'm focusing a lot of work on breaking down plays into smaller chunks that I can describe each part of the play in smaller actions where I can attribute more of the outcome to the match ups of players and the abilities of individual players in certain actions.  This will allow us to have the individual ratings affect much more specific things. The downside is it takes a LOT of work to rebuild the engine in this way.

There are several points I'm sticking to in reworking the plays regarding the use of ratings:
- the importance of ratings at each position should be as close as possible to current importance. I don't want to wreck what people have been recruiting.
- defunct ratings for positions should not be used.  I won't use SPD for O-lineman or BLK for D-Lineman, and such.
- try to keep the meaning of ratings consistent across positions. Some are not possible, like STR.

One thing I know will be one of the consistency issues is TECH and GI.  TECH will be used as a measure of consistency, which can be applied to any actions where there can be a range of results.  For instance, it would be used for QB accuracy and Punter punting consistency.  GI will be used to represent a player's ability to recognize what is going on on the field.  This can be the QBs ability to recognize a blitz or see the open receiver.  It can be a player's ability to recognize a rushing play when the defense calls a passing play.

This means we'll be able to more clearly define what each rating affects.  For example, for punting, STR represents how far a punter can kick the ball whereas TECH represents how consistently he can kick it.  So what this means under the hood is that STR determine the max distance a punter can kick the ball and TECH defines the range of randomness the ball can fall within.  So a high-STR/low-TECH Punter might kick somewhere between 45-60 yards where a low-STR/high-TECH Punter might kick somewhere between 50-55 yards (not actual number from the engine, just used to illustrate a point).  So you might have already surmised that TECH is also important in the Punter being able to place a ball inside the 10 yard-line.

I've been spending a lot of time on non-scrimmage plays, like punts, kickoffs, field goals and such to inject this type of rating usage into breaking down the results of a play, and I'm just now starting on scrimmage plays with a lot of focus initially being on the line play (more in the update post).  But one of the things I'd like to discuss when I get a little more into rushes and passes is how each rating is being used and I'll definitely listen to the feedback from this thread.
8/13/2012 6:25 PM
rwings1927
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I agree with grindi that STR at the QB position should be relative to throwing deep outs and touch on long throws, accuracy should of course have some influence on the bomb but not as much as say hitting a slant, curl or crossing pattern. I'm also with billyb that ELU/ATH should influence sacks without the guy having to be this great running QB. This brings up a question for norbert, is it possible to pair up some attributes to focus a postion to a certain degree...ex spd/elu above certain level = a kick for a option QB and elu/ath for QB with SOME scrambling ability, same RB str/spd above a level = a kick for breaking tackles while spd/elu is for breakaways?
8/13/2012 7:09 PM
chaneyj2
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Posted by norbert on 8/13/2012 6:25:00 PM (view original):
Interesting you bring this up as I was just about to post a status update on the update (see my post on that for more information) and one of the things I was going to address was the change in philosophy on ratings which is part of why its taking so long.

One of the things I want to do with this update is give more unique meaning to the ratings, giving each rating a more definitive purpose in the game.  I'm focusing a lot of work on breaking down plays into smaller chunks that I can describe each part of the play in smaller actions where I can attribute more of the outcome to the match ups of players and the abilities of individual players in certain actions.  This will allow us to have the individual ratings affect much more specific things. The downside is it takes a LOT of work to rebuild the engine in this way.

There are several points I'm sticking to in reworking the plays regarding the use of ratings:
- the importance of ratings at each position should be as close as possible to current importance. I don't want to wreck what people have been recruiting.
- defunct ratings for positions should not be used.  I won't use SPD for O-lineman or BLK for D-Lineman, and such.
- try to keep the meaning of ratings consistent across positions. Some are not possible, like STR.

One thing I know will be one of the consistency issues is TECH and GI.  TECH will be used as a measure of consistency, which can be applied to any actions where there can be a range of results.  For instance, it would be used for QB accuracy and Punter punting consistency.  GI will be used to represent a player's ability to recognize what is going on on the field.  This can be the QBs ability to recognize a blitz or see the open receiver.  It can be a player's ability to recognize a rushing play when the defense calls a passing play.

This means we'll be able to more clearly define what each rating affects.  For example, for punting, STR represents how far a punter can kick the ball whereas TECH represents how consistently he can kick it.  So what this means under the hood is that STR determine the max distance a punter can kick the ball and TECH defines the range of randomness the ball can fall within.  So a high-STR/low-TECH Punter might kick somewhere between 45-60 yards where a low-STR/high-TECH Punter might kick somewhere between 50-55 yards (not actual number from the engine, just used to illustrate a point).  So you might have already surmised that TECH is also important in the Punter being able to place a ball inside the 10 yard-line.

I've been spending a lot of time on non-scrimmage plays, like punts, kickoffs, field goals and such to inject this type of rating usage into breaking down the results of a play, and I'm just now starting on scrimmage plays with a lot of focus initially being on the line play (more in the update post).  But one of the things I'd like to discuss when I get a little more into rushes and passes is how each rating is being used and I'll definitely listen to the feedback from this thread.
Great post norbert. Look forward to this new update.
8/13/2012 7:09 PM
norbert
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There are a few cases where I am kind of stumbling for ratings. For instance, It's pretty much locked up that STR/BLK would be used for OL in the match up at the line, especially between the tackles and probably STR/BLK for rushing plays and BLK/STR for passing plays, but I need counter ratings for the match up on the defensive side.  Obviously STR counters STR, but there's not really a good counter to BLK on the defensive side as far as I can see.  If you look at STR as the ability for an OL to push and BLK as the ability for an OL to prevent a player from getting past him, then it might make sense for ATH to counter BLK as that could represent a player's ability to get around a blocking player.  What do you guys think?  I know TECH might be thrown out there, but I'd like TECH to universally represent a player's ability to perform consistently in any of the actions he is performing.
8/13/2012 7:27 PM
stingray002
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I would use a combination of ATH & ELUS (and maybe SPD) to determine a players ability to get around a block.
8/13/2012 8:02 PM
runnrun
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I would think that ELU would be a factor of getting off of blocks for the defense. Speed could also play a factor.
8/13/2012 8:06 PM
caesari
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Agreed. ELU seems like the answer, and you could possibly include ATH. 
8/13/2012 10:15 PM
bakerbarnett
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ELU & SPD seems like a reasonable answer for avoiding a block, the Dwight Freeney of old method to use an NFL analogy
8/13/2012 10:21 PM
iamthetwo__2
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I have always thought Strength, Elusivness, Tkl, Tech and Speed for good rushing DL's.
8/13/2012 10:52 PM
katzphang88
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Glad my post was so timely. My opinion for line play, without adding a new category to ratings, we need to look at what traits matter to different situations. Three traits may be best to accurately describe different situations, but these three traits may not be equal for the outcome.

For OL I feel the most important trait is strength. If you aren't strong enough to stop an opponent who is stronger - game over. A strong player with good blocking skills would be much more beneficial than a weaker player with great skills. If you aren't strong enough to hold the other player off - then you can't use your skills.

Second trait would depend on play call. Second for a pass blocking situation would be blocking. Second for an inside run would be athleticism for proper footwork/positioning. Second for a wide run would be speed. Third trait for pass blocking would be GI - to pick up blitz, counter pass rushers. Third for run inside and run outside would be blocking since the speed or athleticism got them into the right place to make the block. 

Defensive traits would counter again with strength as number one. Strength for DT especially. I realize that DE on a pass rush may need speed first, but unless we are able to designate an OT to counter the DE then I picked strength first.

Second traits depend on play call and used to counter the OL traits. For passing, elusiveness would counter blocking. For runs inside, athleticism to avoid the OL set-up and move into the hole. For runs outside, speed to counter speed. Third trait would be GI for DL to know when to make a move to the QB. For inside runs and outside runs the third would be elusiveness (for lack of any better traits) to avoid last second blocks by FB, WR, TE.

These match-ups would give good indication of how deep the DL could get into the backfield and disrupt the play or how far up field the OL can push them.

Each OL trait modified by technique (now consistency), stamina (with real values where 32% plays 1/2 the plays of 64%), and formation IQ (which also should run from 1 to 100)

Tackle skill would come into play if the skill sets for the DL allowed them to beat the OL and get close to the ball holder/carrier.
8/14/2012 12:19 AM
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