Flex offense VS Motion offense Topic

jaggedendz
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I was reading up on the "motion dribble drive offense" and as a result of what the discription says about this offense is the same discription as WIS has for the Flex offense. The thing is dribble drive offense is a motion based offense.

To implement the "dribble drive offense" on HD would you use a flex Uptempo style or a Motion Uptempo style with a smaller line up like PG,SG,SF,SF,C?
11/13/2009 11:19 AM
jaggedendz
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dribble_drive_motion

Dribble drive motion

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The Dribble drive motion is a basketball offensive strategy developed by University of Massachusetts assistant coach Vance Walberg, when he was a high school coach in California.

The offense was popularized by University of Kentucky basketball coach John Calipari during his tenure at the University of Memphis, and is sometimes called the 'Memphis attack'. Originally called 'AASAA' by Walberg (for "Attack, Attack, Skip, Attack, Attack"), the offense is also sometimes known as the 'Walberg offense' or abbreviated to DDM, and has been described as "Princeton on steroids". SPAN/SPAN1SPAN/SPAN

The offense focuses on spreading the offensive players in the half court, so that the point guard can drive through the defensive gaps for a layup or dunk, or pass out to the perimeter if the defense collapses on the driving guard. SPAN/SPAN2SPAN/SPAN

Flex offense on the bottom:

Pros
Doesn't require a big presence inside to be effective, allows the offense to spread the floor and use quickness to penetrate to the basket or draw the defense in for open outside shots.




These sound the same to me.


Flex
Summary
The Flex is a variation of the motion offense in which all five players are interchangeable. The offense is taught to react in specific ways based on the defense.
11/13/2009 11:21 AM
oldave
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i may very well be wrong, but i havent found that the HD offenses are necesarily setup in a way where using specific player types or tempos would be needed to make it successful.

it seems to me that if you get good players, you win. if you dont get good players... you lose.

like i said, maybe im wrong. maybe these little subtleties do matter when matching your players to a particular offense. I just havent seen that, nor have i heard much talk of that being the case by top HD users. I also think I recall admin (tk) actually coming out and saying that the three offenses (other than FB, obnviously) were pretty much the same or something to that degree. i will admit that i may have misunderstood his comment.

it would seem like there must be a difference between flex/motion/triangle in HD (else why did they go thought the trouble of creating the different names?), but i just havent seen it.

id be interested to hear differing viewpoints....
11/13/2009 12:21 PM
cburton23
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I have to agree with oldave on that it doesn't really matter too much. I have run a lot of different offenses and the only thing I have seen is that mys best players score the most, regardless of position or offense. I am sure there are some subtle differences and maybe I am missing out on gameplanning there, but I think the main reason there are different offenses is because they have to differentiate for IQ purposes.

That being said, I don't think you could copy the dribble drive effectivley in HD. You would have to set your PG and SF to -2 and your SG and PF to +2 or something along those lines. I think if you were actually able to watch it it would look nothing like what Memphis did.
11/13/2009 12:34 PM
oldresorter
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i would guess built into the code there are some differences, maybe ath does mean more or less in triangle than in flex for the power forward position for example - however, these are very subtle differences, and I am not so sure that even 'power' users have made much progress in figuring those differences out

11/13/2009 1:01 PM
jenningss
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Way way back I used to think the differences were only how good the team played at a certain IQ. For ex., at lower IQ flex played better and at the highest IQ motion played better. I mean they all play best at A+ but you got more for your money by the time flex hit B- or so, with triangle somewhere in between.

I've also wondered if maybe each offense was better against a specific defense.

Now I just want better players with high IQ.
11/13/2009 1:16 PM
jetsons
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There are clear differences in the 3 defense options that you need to factor in during recruiting. The same can not be said for Offense.
11/13/2009 1:16 PM
coach_billyg
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the biggest difference i have noticed is that my motion teams are more effective with a relatively balanced player game plan. not that all players have to be around the same level, but usually the top few guys are. in the other offenses, the "penalty" if you will for giving 1-2 guys most of the shots seems to be significantly lower. i don't know if i would say this is a "huge" difference, but its pretty significant in my experience.

have others found this to be true as well?
11/14/2009 10:43 PM
jaggedendz
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It would seem that in the triangle, it works best to have 3 players with the most distro that works well with a LP threat and two Perimeter shooters. I don't know about Flex, I heard Motion works well with an even distro. I've seen seccesfull teams have overloaded distro team to some main players too though. Even in the fastbrake offense as well.
11/14/2009 10:50 PM
oldave
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Quote: Originally Posted By jaggedendz on 11/14/2009It would seem that in the triangle, it works best to have 3 players with the most distro that works well with a LP threat and two Perimeter shooters. I don't know about Flex, I heard Motion works well with an even distro. I've seen seccesfull teams have overloaded distro team to some main players too though. Even in the *fastbrake* offense as well
:-)

i think this is the offense i am running at Syr-tark

(though i have also referred to it in the past as my "breakfast" offense
11/15/2009 1:13 AM
oldave
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Quote: Originally Posted By coach_billyg on 11/14/2009the biggest difference i have noticed is that my motion teams are more effective with a relatively balanced player game plan. not that all players have to be around the same level, but usually the top few guys are. in the other offenses, the "penalty" if you will for giving 1-2 guys most of the shots seems to be significantly lower. i don't know if i would say this is a "huge" difference, but its pretty significant in my experience.

have others found this to be true as well
interesting stuff.

i have never run more than 3 teams at once. usually only 2 teams. and have allways stuck with whatever O and D i was dealt and have not moved aound much... so, i guess i am not really a power user and really dont have an informed opinion like some of the other guys.

the problem is that that right now and forthe foreseeable future my two teams are motion and FB, and most folks agree that those run best with widely spread distro, which is what i normally do. so i guess im not going to learn much on this topic.
11/15/2009 1:18 AM
oldresorter
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Quote: Originally Posted By coach_billyg on 11/14/2009
the biggest difference i have noticed is that my motion teams are more effective with a relatively balanced player game plan. not that all players have to be around the same level, but usually the top few guys are. in the other offenses, the "penalty" if you will for giving 1-2 guys most of the shots seems to be significantly lower. i don't know if i would say this is a "huge" difference, but its pretty significant in my experience.

have others found this to be true as well?
the most success I have seen a coach giving hi distro to one position ran / runs motion - I now have seen this guy make the toruny, get more than typical numbers of upsets, and get several different POY maybe even a NPOY, running motion in a very competitive d1 conference

I would not view this statement as an endorsement that motion is best for unbalanced distro, just that motion may not be worse than the others for unbalanced distro attacks

One comment about your experience with motion, most your teams are pretty good vs the competition (as are many of mine) such that a balanced attack often (but not always) will net you the best results, irregardless of the type of offense.

11/15/2009 6:43 AM
oldave
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good point OR, i guess i had more info to go on than i thought.
11/15/2009 7:27 AM
coach_billyg
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11/15/2009 10:10 AM
coach_billyg
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OR, i see what you are saying, and I can't disagree. maybe its more of a d1/d2 difference, as my experience is really with motion and triangle, motion primarily in d1, triangle in d2. with my triangle team, i find we are clearly more successful with a less balanced approach, because it allows me to focus on offense in fewer players. if the players were balanced in their offensive ability, i would go with a balanced distribution, but because the penalty for giving most of it to a couple guys seems very small, i like to put extra focus on offense for a few players and much less on the rest of the players. this allows my team's defensive and rebounding ability to improve without a hit on offense.

with my d1 motion teams, i never had any luck relying on a couple players, so i felt i had to focus on it across the board. but, maybe it is because defense is much tougher across the board against high caliber d1 opponents, where as in d2, a great offensive player is much harder to match? or maybe its because in d1 on top teams, the players are so close to maxed out, there is no room for a player who is weak offensively? as in, he could not be a great player without good offense, as there are dozens of players who are excellent in the other categories as well as offense?
11/15/2009 10:21 AM
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