Champion just crowned in our world and I noticed a pattern by the winning team. In each game he chose just one player to score on the starters and the reserves. The result was a rather easy win for this team. Most cases it was the same two players but not always. It eems a little unrealistic to me. Any ideas from anyone?

It's certainly an interesting strategy.

Although, I think I'm more ****** that his 56 rated shooter is shooting 38% from downtown while my 95 rated shooter struggled all season long.

bing ball. it's a well documented strategy. I used it quite effectively last season in random situations.

Yup and he used it the way I've seen it done and the way I used it last year. With his starting and backup SG. Give em each about 45% of the distro, spread the other 10% to your other 2 or 3 offensive players, then set the rest of your team at 0. You'd be amazed at how well it works. Of course, the key is to have offensive minded SGs.

flex is the offense. big surprise! i know people like to tell me that offensive set doesn't matter for distro setting, but it gets harder to believe it every day.

Oliver Miller - favorite player - that is hilarious Hackerhog...

Quote: Originally posted by brianxavier on 3/17/2010Oliver Miller - favorite player - that is hilarious Hackerhog...

Ha! I forgot I put that. Here's what I think his WIS ratings would have been for his SR year at Arkansas.

Name Yr. Pos. A SPD REB DE BLK LP PE BH P WE ST DU FT TOT OI DI
Olliver Miller Sr. PF 61 48 89 77 97 92 46 24 92 53 68 63 B- 810 A- A-

We need a thread out here like that... what would you think the WIS ratings would be for your favorite college player. Maybe WIS has that somewhere already. I have no clue. I love using their simulator to play '91 Arkansas against varying teams. I always thought '91 Arkansas was the best team in Razorback history. Moreso than their '78, '94, and '95 teams. May-O-Day baby!

analytically, why do we think that bing ball is successful? is it more successful than balanced scoring? is it a way to get better results out of less talent or is it useful even IF one has 6 or 7 pretty good players?

too often, I play this game based on how I would coach real hoops, I get better at the game when I make small steps toward understanding the ways in which it is like real ball and the ways in which it is not.....

That Arkansas team was awesome. They stand out in my mind as one of the best champions in the past few decades. I can still picture that huge O Miller roaming the courts.

Never heard of bing ball. interesting concept. I would like to hear what folks think about why over loading 2 players in that manner works. And if it should just be used for a team with poor scorers. Although I find it hard to believe a national champion of any type wouldn't have several good scoring options.

Quote: Originally posted by brianxavier on 3/17/2010That Arkansas team was awesome.  They stand out in my mind as one of the best champions in the past few decades.  I can still picture that huge O Miller roaming the courts.Never heard of bing ball.  interesting concept.  I would like to hear what folks think about why over loading 2 players in that manner works.  And if it should just be used for a team with poor scorers.  Although I find it hard to believe a national champion of any type wouldn't have several good scoring options.

Actually the Big O team never won a title. They made the Final 4 their sophomore year in '90. Was #1 going into the tournament in '91, but lost in the elite 8 to KU. Then upset in the 2nd round to Penny Hardaway their Sr year in '92.

Hogs won the championship in '94 with Corliss and Scottie.

But back to Bing ball.

My team was 2 deep last year with plenty of offensive weapons, but I had 2 great scorers at the SG spot. When I first heard of it, I tried it quite a bit just to see the results and I won huge. When I got to the NT, I used it until I got to a game that I knew was competitive. Got scared and went back to my 'sharing that sugar' strategy and was upset by a lesser team. There's no doubt in my mind if I would've stuck to bing ball, I would've won that game.

This year, my starting SG is a JR and my primary option, but my backup SG is only a frosh and I'm still grooming him. Maybe late next year I'll go back to the strategy.

Again... like the others posting on the strategy. I don't know that it works as we think, but I see more and more evidence that it does indeed work. I don't know why.

One more thing... I don't run flex, but motion. But based on the flex offenses in real basketball and how the offense is described on WIS, you'd think it would be the best offense to run if you do go to bing ball.

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i agree completely on that last note. that is really the problem - not enough penalty for taking such a high % of shots. and to the people who asked if its worth doing with other quality options - that remains to be determined, i'd say. when bing ran it, he could have had other guys take shots, but he didn't. and his two central teams were totally dominant. but how do you know if the team could have been even better? its tough to say, i mean, how much better can you get?

my triangle program at SIUE has been running a similar system for 20 seasons (similar to themselves, not to bingball). the biggest change was back before bing even won a title, we were in a conference in rupp, and i had a vastly better (10 senior) team who he beat a couple times in the same season. i mean his top 2 could compete with my top 10 but by no means did he have the best player on the court. so, i changed my strategy, to lean more heavily on my better players, and it made all the difference in the world (after losing 2/3 in the regular season, we beat him in the final 4 by more than 20). but, i have definitely seen you can push it too far. at least with triangle at my d2 team. when i lean on a guy too hard, my team performance suffers. is flex different? i don't know, but i went from 2 motion and 2 triangle teams to 1 triangle and 3 flex to try to figure it out. my sentiment is division makes a big difference. in d1 defense is just too good, i seemed to struggle a lot trying to give a guy a bunch of distro (i didnt try giving a guy 100% for his lineup, though). in d2, i struggle with it too. i give a guy a whole bunch and find myself curbing it back to increase overall performance. but, the d3 team i tried it with, seemed more feasible. they ended up winning a championship (not playing bing ball, but with 4 guards taking almost all the shots instead of 2, because i had the depth in quality), but tark d3 was so derailed it really doesn't mean much. i think i had like 3 title game appearances in 5 seasons running a similar strategy, so it was definitely successful, though. anyway, that is pretty much the extent of my research into bingball, which is probably as extensive as anybody except bing himself, as i became fascinated with it before he even made his first final 4 (i think).

i think he eventually quit because its so ridiculous how successful he was with such a ridiculous strategy. i personally feel WIS should make a change for guys taking over 30% of the shots or something like that. but, keep in mind bing was only successful in d3. he came to my d2 conf, took a not top 10 team to #2 rpi, but didn't really have a chance of beating my well-rounded team. he didn't stick around long enough to show what he could do on an a+ prestige but extrapolating the results, i was pretty confident he would never be able to build a better d2 program with that style than the more moderate style i relied on.

i think its worthwhile for everybody to experiment with bingball a bit. most coaches probably rely too little on their better players, like i did. don't get me wrong, you can still be successful. i was going for my 4th title in not very many total seasons when i saw what bing was doing. but i never would have gotten to 2 and 3 at a time if i just stuck with the same formula. i doubt i will ever play anything close to true bingball, but it has definitely shaped the way i approach the game today.

edit: i think its worth mentioning that d3 team, i never gave a crap about. i just liked the conference. i say that because i don't want people to compare their success to bing's and say running with 4 guards was less successful, or that if i really understood bingball, they would have done better. i personally think it would have been more successful with the 4 guards than 2. i just don't have it in me to try with all my teams, and i've always been that way. but, that kind of helps the experiment. it meant i was trying with flex teams that weren't that good, if i had the best team in the country, it wouldn't really mean anything if they played well. and all the lower division teams over performed, so i think i have a pretty good grasp on the whole thing.

i suppose my conclusion after all that rambling is, i am pretty convinced bingball is not the optimal strategy. especially outside of d3. but it is a damn good one to understand, and work into your own system. also, i think it is vulnerable to man/zone double teaming, especially outside of d3. but, it is shockingly effective. so effective, it might be acceptable to call it a glitch. but, there are still many questions. can you do the same thing with triangle/motion? i personally am pretty convinced the answer is, not as successfully. but still, more than you'd think. OR and lostmyth have both said, fairly recently, they feel offense doesn't affect how you set distro. i have always said it makes a big difference. who is right? all of us? none of us? its an interesting question no doubt, and to me, one of the most enjoyable parts of the game (trying to decipher the subtle differences in the 3 offenses).

Wow, jdno. 17.5 ppg, with a 5-1 assist:to ratio? That's nuts.

I boosted this guys distro a bit away from my usual mostly balanced approach - and he went 2-13 from the field.....but I may still try some bing ball again with him sometime...ya'd think he would have the ability to bing it

Name	Yr.	Pos.	A	SPD	REB	DE	BLK	LP	PE	BH	P	WE	ST	DU	FT	TOT
Phillip Foley	Sr.	SG	100	100	35	100	15	21	90	99	99	83	91	68	B	901

mets - what offense? i think d1 vs d3 is totally different insofar as how far you can push the bingball approach. i know redneck/roonie at st johns in tark's big east ran something similar with motion, and was surprisingly successful (at least to the big east coaches, it seemed). but i think it has its limits. his team was never great. i think it can make a not very good team somewhat good, and maybe a good team very good. but i think it really starts to hit its limits in the upper echelons of competition. and that cutoff is lower in d1, by a lot, than in d3, in my opinion.