Defense is Overrated Part II Topic

In response to a discussion about defense, more specifically, range "up the middle", I recently drafted an OL team to play in Kauffman Stadium which is considered a "hitter's" park with factors of +1 for singles, +2 for doubles, +3 for triples and -2 for HRs.  In doing so, inasmuch that I figured (apparently incorrectly) there would be many more opportunities for a great range shortstop and secondbaseman to snatch away would be hits, I decided to try something different and sacrificed hitting at those positions and went with two supposedly superior range guys. 

My SS is weak hitting 1943 Whitey Wiettelmann whose RL fielding grades are C+/A+ with a .957 fielding pct. and a 6.12 range factor.  My secondbaseman is 13 Terry Turner whose RL fielding grades are B/A+ with a .981 fielding pct. and a 6.23 range factor. Now, unless I'm seriously missing the boat on something here, or just plain don't know what I'm doing (probably a little of both), according to the range factor of these two guys who play in a park where they should get lots of opportunities to do so, they should be racking up plus plays and double plays left and right.  WRONG!!!!!!!

After 34 games into the season, although I am tied for first in my div, and despite my SS and 2B both fielding better than their RL fielding pct and both being on pace for more than 20 plus plays each, (Wietelmann .964 pct., 21 double plays, 7 errors, 5 plus plays and zero minus plays, Turner .994 pct., 18 double plays, 1 error, 4 plus plays and zero minus plays), my team has only 78 DPs (only 8 above the league avg) and six teams in the league have more.  And what makes this really interesting is that the team with the most DPs in the league (104 playing in Safeco) has a SS/2B combo of 97 Jeff Blauser (25 DPs and 3 minus plays) and 39 Charlie Gehringer (22 DPs and 2 minus plays), both of whom have only D+ range and neither has made a single plus play.

Thus, in other words, the supposedly inferior range combo of Blauser and Gehringer has combined for 47 DPs, while my supposedly superior combo has only racked up a total of 39 DPs in a park where I would think they would have many more opportunities to turn DPs.  So again, unless I'm missing something, this simply affirms what I always thought, i.e., that range is overrated in the sim.

And by the way, for those of you who are of the opinion that the type of pitchers that the fielders are playing  behind makes a difference, my starting rotation is 02 Bill Bernhard, 08 Matthewson and 09 Cy Morgan.

Any opinions?
4/10/2011 10:52 AM

Also, is it just me, or has anyone else noticed that a lot of times, when a high range infielder makes a plus play, either the bases are empty or there's less than two outs, thereby allowing the guy to make his plus plays, but not really having much of an effect of the outcome of the game? 

4/10/2011 11:51 AM
I'm not sure coughman is the best doubleplay park. It promotes doubles and triples. And those "lost" HRs via the park factor AND your deadball doods excellent hr/9 are also mostly assigned as doubles. XBHs of course don't make for good opportunities for turning two.
I'd say the best way to assess the number of chances you have is to add the number of singles and walks and HBP and errors (where batter reaches first) and any other way of reaching first that I haven't thought of. Then compare that to your opponents.
I think maybe all of those things combined with small smaple size? You are on pace for a lot of plus plays, and you are sixth in DPs so it doesn't sound like things are going that poorly?
4/10/2011 12:14 PM
Also opponents speed. 95 spd guys don't hit into DPs. Doesn't matter who you have at SS.
4/10/2011 12:16 PM
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I was under the impression that "hit prevention" was really the bonus aspect of having good or great fielding range, not necessarily DP's.  If we see a player with great range making a "+" play, such as diving and stopping a ground ball that otherwise would have been a hit, it doesn't always follow that a DP would be an extra bonus of this play.  It seems more likely that great fielding and not great range is what aids in DP's, at least that's been my experience.
4/10/2011 2:05 PM
Point taken Nap.  But on the other hand, I was under the impression that superior range makes for more DPs. It just kills me to see that a SS/2B combo in my league who both are D+ range guys, having more DPs than my guys, especially when I was under the impression that I was paying for more DPs.  That just goes to show how much I know. lol
4/10/2011 2:10 PM
you're paying for plus plays and you're getting them. I've never noticed much difference in DPs. opportunity, speed of the hitter, and luck are the most important factors in DPs. Admin once made a comment that range affects DPs but didn't say how much. based on obsevation I'd say probably not much at all. 
also consider if your A+ rangers are taking away 40+ hits then you have fewer opportunities for DPs. Do you have good pitching too? bad teams give up more baserunners and so they have more chances for DPs.
4/10/2011 2:51 PM (edited)

I admit, the plus plays are there, and I also acknowledge all of the different variables that come into play insofar as DPs are concerned.  And to answer your questions, rbow, the pitching is good.  Not what I would consider one of my better staffs because I usually spend a lot on stud starting pitching, but its certainly not a bunch of junk with 02 Bernhard, 08 Mathewson and 09 Cy Morgan who are all pitching well. The bullpen has Robitaille, Caldwell, McCabe, Fu-te Ni, Phil Douglas, Roger Mason and George Spencer. So, as you can see, while the pitching isn't blessed with greatness, it's definitely more than adequate. I apparently made the mistake of thinking that superior range equated to more DPs, as opposed to plus plays, without taking into consideration all of the different variables you guys mentioned. And to be honest, the only reason I'm probably making a big deal about is because due to generally using D- range SS and 2B who can hit, get on base, steal bases and generate runs (i.e. Mark McClemore, Bip, Furcal, etc.), I have nothing to compare my current guys with, except for what they've done for other owners. And given the chance to do a "do over", I would stick to what I know and have had success with and leave the super range guys for others.  

4/10/2011 3:21 PM
Agree with everything said, with an extra emphasis on too small of a sample size (and even then you are not far from the top in turning DP's).  In addition, consider that your team pitching GB/FB ratio is last in the league.  
4/10/2011 3:33 PM
Without sounding stupid, how do you compute the gb/fb ratio for pitchers when drafting?
4/10/2011 4:59 PM

At least, prior to the last update, I did a lolt of studies on IF range and (as I recall) I found that 2B and SS range definately is related to double plays.*  That being said there is variation.  Just like drafting a lower oavg# pitcher doesn't guarantee fewer hits, drafting IF range does not guarantee more DPs.  Also, as other said above you really need to consider your GiDP/GiDPO. 

I don't have my home PC with the studies on it right now.  I will revisit them when I get a chance later this week.

4/10/2011 5:07 PM
Mixtroy, I think jfranco did one of the definitive studies on what high range fielders will and won't get you, and he analyzed it very thoroughly position by position, situation by situation, in terms of both run prevention and DP's.  I have bumped up his thread so you can see it.  Also interested in what zubinsum has to say, because high range fielders and range teams are one of the aspects of SIM that fascinate me the most.
4/11/2011 2:05 PM (edited)
It's probably your pitching that is suppressing it.   Get some high walk, low strikeout, low OAV guys and your DP's should see an increase.   I have noticed that DP's are usually a result  of somewhat questionable pitching.
4/11/2011 6:36 AM
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