Rec						RPI
51	farmlife	16-15	8-7	8-6	0-2	4-12		38	A	PI (Final Four)
50	farmlife	17-14	5-7	9-5	3-2	5-11		32	A-	NT At-large Bid NT (Elite 8)
49	farmlife	11-16	6-7	5-8	0-1	4-12		105	B
48	farmlife	7-20	5-9	2-10	0-1	2-14		91	B

To get to an A in Allen ACC you just need to win a few PT games, huh? 


This is Florida....same baseline, but worse Prestige?  Really?  One team hasn't won 20 games or made the NT 3 of 4 years, the other is 4 time conf champ, winning NT games every year, and in the 5th best conference instead of the 1st best. 

		Rec					Rnk	RPI
51	majresorter	25-6	13-0	9-4	3-2	13-3	13	15	A-	Conf Champion NT At-large Bid NT (2nd Round)
50	reinsel	24-7	11-1	9-5	4-1	13-3	15	20	A	Conf Champion CT Champion NT (2nd Round)
49	reinsel	28-3	12-0	12-2	4-1	16-0	8	14	A-	Conf Champion CT Champion NT (2nd Round)
48	reinsel	28-4	13-0	10-3	5-1	13-3	9	11	A-	Conf Champion CT Champion NT (Sweet 16)

The value of conference prestige as an input to individual team's prestige is dumb in general, but its way too high of a factor.  Florida in this example is better in every measure than Wake Forest except for Wake's 1 Elite 8 berth, which should be overwhelmed by Florida's advantages in Wins, RPI, Ranking, Conference Championships, CT Championships, NT wins, NT berths, etc.

I'm not familiar with all the conferences in question, but I do hear that Allen ACC is perhaps the toughest conference in HD? If so, by virtue of looking at that record, I'm guessing Wake missed the NT because they couldn't get enough wins in conference to get to.500. So, who's to say Florida would have fared any better if the teams were switched. Which directly does point to conference prestige being an important factor in a team's ultimate fate, and therefore should have a big influence on overall prestige.

I have no dog in this fight, this is just in the interest of furthering the discussion...

The Allen ACC is really good.  But if you say lets give the bottom feeders of the ACC $50-60k in NT/PT money and A prestige, while the top dog in the SEC gets an A- and $15,000 in NT/PT money, that isn't good for the game.

If the teams were switched and the results flipped, I'd think Florida should be lower than Wake.  Any team that is 51-65 (wake) in the last 4 years without NT berth in the most recent season should not be an A prestige team.  Or an A- team. 

Florida is 105-20.  Its not close.  

Wake would have made the NT more in a weaker conference.   Those are their real results and should be reflected in their prestige. 


Oh and I am not singling out farmlife, he is a very good coach.  I'd love to have him in any of my conferences, I just think Allen is kind of unbalanced.  The ACC/B10/P10/B12 are kind of a big 4 that just send 30 teams to the NT every year and squeeze everyone else out.  Maybe its showing that the 6 big conferences are headed to 4, just like real life maybe where it'll be the Pac16, SEC, Big 16 and ACC in a few years.

Yea conference prestige affecting team prestige that much is a bit absurd. The ACC just has a built in advantage over every other conference. So many high baseline teams and great recruiting area makes the ACC easy to be dominant. The ACC in Tark is another example, they aren't quite as dominant as the Allen or Phelan ACC but that's mainly because the Big East is so good it keeps them from overwhelming everybody. There are probably examples in every world where there is a dominant conference where 1 or 2 teams just should not have the prestige that they do.

ACC Allen is (far and away) the top conference in HD. And dac is right, Wake only missed the NT because conference play was so tough (heck, Clemson went 8-8 in conference and made the title game, a phenomenon that hasn't been all that unusual over the last 5-10 seaosns). 

That said, I agree with reinsel that his Wake-Florida example is ridiculous.

The ACC is so strong that I'm guessing the formula isn't built to deal with it properly. I do think conference strength/success should play a role -- there are only 1-2 SEC teams that could even compete right now in the ACC -- but I agree that it needs to be dialed back.

The ACC - Allen is the best D1 conference in any world.  The second best team in the Big East or SEC would fail to win 3 games in the ACC.   I went 10-6 in the big 12 and probably would have gone 4-12 there. 

Many of the ACC teams have NT runs that deserve legit A+'s and A's.  However, the system is giving a big boost to everyone and its kind of getting out of hand.  Even without the conf prestige factor, BC, Duke, UNC, Maryland would all be A+ prestige teams for sure.  Clemson too.  That's 5.  My issue is more on the lower end with the Wake's and

Maybe NC State is a little over-rated at an A, when you compare them to Florida above, its hard to argue they aren't getting a big conference bump.  They are at least making the NT 3 of 4 years, but the wins/rpi/nt results still favor Florida a lot and the prestige favors NC State shown here:

Season	Coach	Overall W-L	Home W-L	Road W-L	Neutral W-L	Conf W-L	Rank	RPI	Prestige	Notes
51	fmschwab	16-12	5-3	11-7	0-2	6-10		20	A	NT At-large Bid NT (1st Round)
50	fmschwab	24-7	7-1	14-4	3-2	11-5	14	6	A	Conf Champion NT At-large Bid NT (Sweet 16)
49	fmschwab	3-24	2-6	1-17	0-1	3-13		180	B+
48	fmschwab	16-13	4-5	11-6	1-2	5-11		29	A-	NT At-large Bid NT (1st Round)

For an example this is A+ baseline Syracuse:

Season	Coach	Overall W-L	Home W-L	Road W-L	Neutral W-L	Conf W-L	Rank	RPI	Prestige	Notes
51	steginman	26-7	11-1	9-5	6-1	16-0	12	13	A	Conf Champion CT Champion NT (Elite 8)
50	steginman	30-2	12-1	13-0	5-1	16-0	6	9	A-	Conf Champion CT Champion NT (Sweet 16)
49	steginman	20-10	10-3	7-6	3-1	15-1	25	27	A-	Conf Champion CT Champion NT (1st Round)
48	flyer1950	18-12	10-2	5-9	3-1	13-3		45	A-	CT Champion NT (1st Round)

Not in the same league with NC or Wake in terms of results....better baseline, and same prestige.

Maybe Conf prestige should be a factor, but in the Syracuse/NC State comparison or Syracuse/Wake conf prestige is equal to baseline & results...and in the Florida example it certainly beats results.  Agreed that ACC Allen is on a different level than most worlds, but its pretty nutty.

Posted by girt25 on 9/28/2011 1:39:00 PM (view original):
ACC Allen is (far and away) the top conference in HD. And dac is right, Wake only missed the NT because conference play was so tough (heck, Clemson went 8-8 in conference and made the title game, a phenomenon that hasn't been all that unusual over the last 5-10 seaosns). 

That said, I agree with reinsel that his Wake-Florida example is ridiculous.

The ACC is so strong that I'm guessing the formula isn't built to deal with it properly. I do think conference strength/success should play a role -- there are only 1-2 SEC teams that could even compete right now in the ACC -- but I agree that it needs to be dialed back.

+1

and there's a good chance that this will snowball and continue to be more pronounced in the future.

the BigTen is usually in contention for the #2 conference spot and last seasons recruiting cash totals for all the BigTen coaches was $705,000 while the ACC  teams combined for more than $1,500,000 (not including previous carryover)

ACC Allen got 1.5M last season, with each team getting 125k extra in recruiting cash? 

Don't think that's what he's saying, pretty sure he means that's what those schools had in total to recruit so he included the money they received for their openings. He's showing how big of an edge the ACC has in Allen that in total they had more than double the money for recruiting than the 2nd best conference.

Treat the illness, not the symptoms

Posted by mizzou77 on 9/28/2011 4:08:00 PM (view original):

Treat the illness, not the symptoms

I don't know if just changing recruit generation (what I think you are referring to) is enough anymore.  We've past an inflection point in the sim that has caused more and more power & money to be concentrated in the top teams favor.   I think there are other problems besides recruit generation in D1 , and I think this is probably one of them.

My solution would be whatever weight conference prestige is playing in Team prestige should be cut by half or more and that void should be filled by team performance.

Posted by kmasonbx on 9/28/2011 3:43:00 PM (view original):
Don't think that's what he's saying, pretty sure he means that's what those schools had in total to recruit so he included the money they received for their openings. He's showing how big of an edge the ACC has in Allen that in total they had more than double the money for recruiting than the 2nd best conference.

correct.  I was talking about tourney cash plus open scholarships.

this season it should be a bit closer at $1.25 million to $850k

Problem No. 1 is that the average baseline prestige of the ACC schools, when converted to numerical values, is nearly a full letter grade higher than the average baseline prestige of all of the other BCS schools combined. That is way too big a gap, and inherently sets up the ACC to be a super-conference. People are talking about Allen alot, but it's a very similar scenario in Phelan as well. Two of the past three seasons, the ACC has had around $56K in bonus money per team, while the 2nd best conference was around $25K. Last season was a "down" season, so the advantage was a mere $43K to $28K.

I think the high ACC baseline prestige is the real culprit here. That's what's feeding the conference prestige effect, because they're already starting out a full letter grade higher than everyone else. I say bring the ACC baseline prestiges back down to earth a bit, and keep the conference prestige effect. After all, a team's conference affiliation can certainly enhance a school's appeal to recruits.

Logically, I don't really think that holds much water. 

You're talking about the baseline prestiges of the individual schools, and that's decidedly not the culprit here. If it were, then we wouldn't be holding Cuse and Florida up as examples of what's gone a bit awry. It's the overall conference success (or lack thereof) that's clearly and heavily outweighing individual baseline prestige.

It's also worth noting that in the other world I'm in (Rupp), the ACC is terrible, easily the worst BCS conference and arguably lower on the totem pole than that. And the baseline prestiges are not propping anyone up. So it's also not as if the ACC is just automatically dominant in every world, either.