How far do you think a team could go on a 4 guard 1 SF/PF lineup could go or 5 guard lineup. 75+ spd across the bar and great bh/pas at every position would the offense the turnovers caused be enough to make up for the rebounding?

I'm very intrigued on seeing how far I can go on that after what I did with no ath/def

I would assume I'd go motion or fastbreak offense with press to make it a viable team

I've used FB/FCP combp in the past, I don't think you could ever get away with a 5 guard lineup, unless maybe you had D-1 elite rebounding guards. I've had a lot of success with a 3 guard lineup, tried a 4 guard lineup and that didn't work out too well. If you did make an attempt to try it out, you would probably have more luck at D-3.

yes D3 was what I was planning, I routinely run 3 guard lineups anyways sometimes even with a sf at pf, but I really wanted to see if I could get away with 4 or 5 guard lineups and see how far it can go.

If you did it, makes sense to run a motion-press. Motion is supposed to be 5 interchangeable players anyways, and that's literally what you would have. 5 great passers with the IQ's in a motion would be fun to see shooting percentages against DIII defenses. And the motion would help cushion the lack of rebounding the most.

I've been running 4 guards with a PF/C at LSU in Knight the last 3 or 4 seasons -- currently running PG/PG/PG/SG/C, with a triangle/M2M. I think it's great, especially if your "PF" has a little bit of rebounding (my current "PF" has 51). In my experience, the speed/shooting advantages more than overcome the (marginal) loss of REB. Would love to try a 5G lineup, but have never been blessed by recruit gen allowing me to do it.

Posted by johnsensing on 2/24/2016 5:59:00 PM (view original):
I've been running 4 guards with a PF/C at LSU in Knight the last 3 or 4 seasons -- currently running PG/PG/PG/SG/C, with a triangle/M2M. I think it's great, especially if your "PF" has a little bit of rebounding (my current "PF" has 51). In my experience, the speed/shooting advantages more than overcome the (marginal) loss of REB. Would love to try a 5G lineup, but have never been blessed by recruit gen allowing me to do it.

i tried it for a while too, with some pretty good reb guards at the 3 and 4, and just didn't find it was worth it myself. that was playing press, which i assume would be more conducive to such an arrangement, but maybe not? this was a long time ago too (7 years maybe). i basically felt the bh/pass wasn't doing anything, and assuming i could field a great offensive team still having two real bigs, then i basically felt like the reb was the big tradeoff. the spd vs sb on def tradeoff varies by defense, but generally, i'd take sb at the 4 in man and zone, and would be torn in press (which is what i played when i didn't see value in 4 guard lineups). i was also trading off on a single team, between multiple viable lineups, so not exactly a fair comparison. it was a few really good teams that i played around with, all won NCs - and i was always going back to 2 bigs for the NT. so maybe 4 guards is useful in some cases or more useful now, but i felt like it definitely was hurting the ceiling of how could a team could possibly be, which was not the answer i had expected going in!

just to be clear, i think 4 guards could be really helpful in some cases. where im fairly confident its not, is when you are trying to basically max all abilities, that is where i didn't think it held up - there simply wasn't enough room to improve the guard abilities (per scoring and bh/pass) to compensate for being less-than-elite on reb. so, i don't think the best team you could reasonable build in d1, would feature a 4 guard lineup, i'm pretty confident it would not. that doesn't mean its not useful in plenty of other situations though, don't want to be suggesting its a useless strategy or anything, which is kind of what i got from my post upon re-read.

I played 4 guards on a FB/Zone team before I understood the value of block in zone. I played a guy with 35ish REB at the 4 and like 80/80 ATH DEF in D3. I think his block was in single digits. I played around with a 2-3 and a 3-2 and got smoked in both on defense. The 4 wasn't an offensive threat so I wasn't seeing any real benefit of playing him on offense.

Very possible to be successful at D1 with just 1 Big on the roster ... this is a monster of a team ... runs Triangle/FCP and the one big man starts but only averages 19.3 mpg. Oldman does start an SF at the 4 but his REB rating is only a 37.

https://www.whatifsports.com/hd/TeamProfile/Ratings.aspx?tid=8825

What's the benefit of this? Causing more TO's? Increased FG% because their is more PASS in the lineup?

Posted by possumfiend on 2/24/2016 8:32:00 PM (view original):
Very possible to be successful at D1 with just 1 Big on the roster ... this is a monster of a team ... runs Triangle/FCP and the one big man starts but only averages 19.3 mpg. Oldman does start an SF at the 4 but his REB rating is only a 37.

https://www.whatifsports.com/hd/TeamProfile/Ratings.aspx?tid=8825

wow I can't believe they are only getting out rebounded by 0.5 thats crazy

Posted by the0nlyis on 2/24/2016 9:26:00 PM (view original):

Posted by possumfiend on 2/24/2016 8:32:00 PM (view original):
Very possible to be successful at D1 with just 1 Big on the roster ... this is a monster of a team ... runs Triangle/FCP and the one big man starts but only averages 19.3 mpg. Oldman does start an SF at the 4 but his REB rating is only a 37.

https://www.whatifsports.com/hd/TeamProfile/Ratings.aspx?tid=8825

wow I can't believe they are only getting out rebounded by 0.5 thats crazy

dont read into that. in his half dozenish games against top 10 rpi opponents, he has predictably gotten wrecked on the boards. the thing about team averages, even as a bcs team against a solid sos (10 in his case), it just doesn't represent what really happens in games against top tier d1 teams.

edit: just to expound on that a bit, the thing is about d2/d3 (unless its changed), is that outside the top team or two, there isn't usually a huge disparity between say the #5 and #30 team. its substantial, sure. but in d1, that difference is often a hundred points (of overall rating). nobody plays all top 10 teams all year, so even a strong SOS, you typically only have a handful of games against top tier teams. for oldman to have a half dozen of those, on a #10 sos, is pretty high, actually. and he got beaten badly on the boards over those 6 games, lost all 6 and got creamed in a couple. on average, its a BIG difference.

this plays into what i was saying earlier. of course, you can have a good 4 guard starter team. but, it gets harder and harder to make up for the rebounding hit, the better your opponents are. top d1 teams are so good in all categories, great on D, great scoring wise, great rebounders, with great guard skills. how much more can you improve in those areas? i don't think there is enough room there, to improve over roughly 90s in everything, to compensate for the comparably huge rebounding weakness. now, i do think 4 guard squads could win d1 titles, there's no doubt really. but i'm almost positive that at some point, at least by say when you are trying to build the kind of teams who position you to win a string of titles in a short time, that 4 guards would make that significantly harder. my feeling is the tipping point is around the championship seeking level (top 5ish d1 play, roughly), where 4 guard teams would really have to succeed in spite of having 4 guards. just my take, could be higher, could be lower, but i definitely think the strategy has a ceiling for where it remains effective.

Yeah, he got out rebounded by 10 in his last game

My CNU team in Knight has been small for a few seasons. I run into problems against well-rounded, good teams. I can't force nearly enough TOs to make up for getting out-rebounded by 10-15 boards against those teams. You can make the NT but getting past the S16 is pretty tough IMO.

Posted by gillispie1 on 2/24/2016 10:59:00 PM (view original):

Posted by the0nlyis on 2/24/2016 9:26:00 PM (view original):

Posted by possumfiend on 2/24/2016 8:32:00 PM (view original):
Very possible to be successful at D1 with just 1 Big on the roster ... this is a monster of a team ... runs Triangle/FCP and the one big man starts but only averages 19.3 mpg. Oldman does start an SF at the 4 but his REB rating is only a 37.

https://www.whatifsports.com/hd/TeamProfile/Ratings.aspx?tid=8825

wow I can't believe they are only getting out rebounded by 0.5 thats crazy

dont read into that. in his half dozenish games against top 10 rpi opponents, he has predictably gotten wrecked on the boards. the thing about team averages, even as a bcs team against a solid sos (10 in his case), it just doesn't represent what really happens in games against top tier d1 teams.

edit: just to expound on that a bit, the thing is about d2/d3 (unless its changed), is that outside the top team or two, there isn't usually a huge disparity between say the #5 and #30 team. its substantial, sure. but in d1, that difference is often a hundred points (of overall rating). nobody plays all top 10 teams all year, so even a strong SOS, you typically only have a handful of games against top tier teams. for oldman to have a half dozen of those, on a #10 sos, is pretty high, actually. and he got beaten badly on the boards over those 6 games, lost all 6 and got creamed in a couple. on average, its a BIG difference.

this plays into what i was saying earlier. of course, you can have a good 4 guard starter team. but, it gets harder and harder to make up for the rebounding hit, the better your opponents are. top d1 teams are so good in all categories, great on D, great scoring wise, great rebounders, with great guard skills. how much more can you improve in those areas? i don't think there is enough room there, to improve over roughly 90s in everything, to compensate for the comparably huge rebounding weakness. now, i do think 4 guard squads could win d1 titles, there's no doubt really. but i'm almost positive that at some point, at least by say when you are trying to build the kind of teams who position you to win a string of titles in a short time, that 4 guards would make that significantly harder. my feeling is the tipping point is around the championship seeking level (top 5ish d1 play, roughly), where 4 guard teams would really have to succeed in spite of having 4 guards. just my take, could be higher, could be lower, but i definitely think the strategy has a ceiling for where it remains effective.

"he got beaten badly on the boards over those 6 games, lost all 6..."

Lost all 6? What on earth are you looking at? He is currently ranked #1 with a 30-2 record and playing in the final four ... what he lacks in rebounding he more than makes up for with forced turnovers.

Posted by dan2044 on 2/24/2016 5:24:00 PM (view original):
If you did it, makes sense to run a motion-press. Motion is supposed to be 5 interchangeable players anyways, and that's literally what you would have. 5 great passers with the IQ's in a motion would be fun to see shooting percentages against DIII defenses. And the motion would help cushion the lack of rebounding the most.

exxxxxxxxxxxxcept, that in the WIS versions of flex and motion they completely inverts the importance of BH & PS in those systems...so while your initial evaluation is correct is practically correct in real life, it sadly breaks down in our online version of real life.