Curious q.

If the below fictional player existed with all green potentials, how would you distribute practice minutes in his first season? Let's just envision him as a 3/4 for this scenario's sake.

A 40
SPD 40
REB 30
DEF 30
BLK 30
LP 30
PER 30
BH 30
PASS 30
WE 75
ST 65

I wouldn't sweat it very much honestly. He is going to grow insane in year one and likely tap out early if given pt. The thing I would be watching is his lp and per because there is a good chance those could go huge. Other than that I would keep an eye out to see which ones were growing fastest and which turn blue.

Depending on how much you use on sets, I would set conditioning and defense at 16-20, Reb at 12-15, everything else at maintenance or just above (6-7 for BH & Pass, 3-4 for LP/Per), with remainder going to FT; or study hall, if FT is orange/red.

Posted by shoe3 on 8/28/2020 7:18:00 PM (view original):
Depending on how much you use on sets, I would set conditioning and defense at 16-20, Reb at 12-15, everything else at maintenance or just above (6-7 for BH & Pass, 3-4 for LP/Per), with remainder going to FT; or study hall, if FT is orange/red.

You would put him on maintenance in lp, per, bh, and pa even though he is green in those categories?

I do agree about overloading conditioning and defense though -- ath, def, and stm need to improve quickly so he is good enough to play the following season.

12’s

There are a lot of factors. There's the factor of what position you want him to be, what offense and defense sets you run and what other talent you have on your team. Obviously for me being that I would use a guy like that at SF with balanced stats, I would average out all the skills evenly. And then when a skill or more turn blue then adjust to keep the greens getting more.

Posted by marl_karx on 8/28/2020 6:26:00 PM (view original):
I wouldn't sweat it very much honestly. He is going to grow insane in year one and likely tap out early if given pt. The thing I would be watching is his lp and per because there is a good chance those could go huge. Other than that I would keep an eye out to see which ones were growing fastest and which turn blue.

Going off your last two points, I'd make sure to keep a close eye on if LP / PER in case they go blue. I just had a FR guard, for example, go from green to blue without gaining even 1 PER and now I know he'll max out at ~65. I don't plan on him becoming a shooter for me at any point now so I took all practice off PER and relocated it to some of his other high potential areas.

I've always been curious to see or hear about other coaches practice plans in 3.0. I believe I have fairly strong reasoning as to why I set my practice minutes the way I do but I just assumed I'm close with minute distribution. What's the highest you all go and what's a normal range?

Posted by tdiddy3 on 8/28/2020 8:34:00 PM (view original):
There are a lot of factors. There's the factor of what position you want him to be, what offense and defense sets you run and what other talent you have on your team. Obviously for me being that I would use a guy like that at SF with balanced stats, I would average out all the skills evenly. And then when a skill or more turn blue then adjust to keep the greens getting more.

Exactly what I did with Rex Spiva btw.

Posted by beachhouse on 8/28/2020 9:25:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tdiddy3 on 8/28/2020 8:34:00 PM (view original):
There are a lot of factors. There's the factor of what position you want him to be, what offense and defense sets you run and what other talent you have on your team. Obviously for me being that I would use a guy like that at SF with balanced stats, I would average out all the skills evenly. And then when a skill or more turn blue then adjust to keep the greens getting more.

Exactly what I did with Rex Spiva btw.

The above player doesn't actually exist but I do have a backup target in one world with a bunch of greens in the 10's/20's...if I wind up signing him and redshirting him, curious to see if he stands a chance at being at least a +300 player. I always struggle in scenarios like this. I actually have a kid who was all green & blue except BLK (black), BH (black), and P (orange) with a starting WE in the high 40's. I went 4 in BH and put most minutes into conditioning and footwork, the rest in REB, LP, and PE..his BH dropped 3 points and turned blue after one season.

Spiva's main competition in Knight might have tapped out btw...he's 8 points shy of going +400 after 10 games: https://www.whatifsports.com/hd/PlayerProfile/RatingsHistory.aspx?tid=13560&pid=4512819

Posted by marl_karx on 8/28/2020 8:24:00 PM (view original):

Posted by shoe3 on 8/28/2020 7:18:00 PM (view original):
Depending on how much you use on sets, I would set conditioning and defense at 16-20, Reb at 12-15, everything else at maintenance or just above (6-7 for BH & Pass, 3-4 for LP/Per), with remainder going to FT; or study hall, if FT is orange/red.

You would put him on maintenance in lp, per, bh, and pa even though he is green in those categories?

I do agree about overloading conditioning and defense though -- ath, def, and stm need to improve quickly so he is good enough to play the following season.

As a freshman yes, especially in a redshirt season, because of your last sentence. My approach is not necessarily to max him out or to get him as much overall development as possible, but to get him to be the best at what I want him to do, whatever I decide that is. As a forward, I would prioritize conditioning and defense first, followed by rebounding; then the scoring, then the BH/P last.

Assuming 5 years of development, with that work ethic, and figuring I can get him good playing time, if not starts by his 3rd (soph) season, I would expect to be starting to work on his scoring early that sophomore season, to make him a scoring threat for when he’s an upperclassman. The BH/P is mostly gravy; it’s not nothing, but even at the 3, it’s not going to move the needle a whole lot on his value if he still has significant conditioning, rebounding and scoring development to make. Probably moving up BH/P the end of the 4th year, and focusing on it the 5th, unless the scoring turns out to be really high/high.

Posted by shoe3 on 8/28/2020 11:29:00 PM (view original):

Posted by marl_karx on 8/28/2020 8:24:00 PM (view original):

Posted by shoe3 on 8/28/2020 7:18:00 PM (view original):
Depending on how much you use on sets, I would set conditioning and defense at 16-20, Reb at 12-15, everything else at maintenance or just above (6-7 for BH & Pass, 3-4 for LP/Per), with remainder going to FT; or study hall, if FT is orange/red.

You would put him on maintenance in lp, per, bh, and pa even though he is green in those categories?

I do agree about overloading conditioning and defense though -- ath, def, and stm need to improve quickly so he is good enough to play the following season.

As a freshman yes, especially in a redshirt season, because of your last sentence. My approach is not necessarily to max him out or to get him as much overall development as possible, but to get him to be the best at what I want him to do, whatever I decide that is. As a forward, I would prioritize conditioning and defense first, followed by rebounding; then the scoring, then the BH/P last.

Assuming 5 years of development, with that work ethic, and figuring I can get him good playing time, if not starts by his 3rd (soph) season, I would expect to be starting to work on his scoring early that sophomore season, to make him a scoring threat for when he’s an upperclassman. The BH/P is mostly gravy; it’s not nothing, but even at the 3, it’s not going to move the needle a whole lot on his value if he still has significant conditioning, rebounding and scoring development to make. Probably moving up BH/P the end of the 4th year, and focusing on it the 5th, unless the scoring turns out to be really high/high.

My thoughts are

1) at 75 we he can grow insane overall and good in every category as a freshman. I also assume he will tap out by his senior year other than potentially lp/per

1a) the way lp/per growth work I'm looking at him as a scorer until proven otherwise

1b) this player projects mediocre unless he becomes a great scorer. I would say 30->90+ is too much to assume in either category but I would be hoping

1c) if you wait until he is upper class to try and gain final 25+ pts in scoring you're going to end up getting about one good half season as a senior over his entire career. Not sure its even worth it.

2) you're redshirting him because he sucks hard to start with rather than because he will benefit significantly from it as a player. I think he could grow fine as a low minute 11th/12th man and put the redshirt to better use.

Agreed.... 75 WE is huge. Give him some 10s everywhere. 12 on conditioning and defense maybe, and let it ride until you see blues. Reduce to 8 and take those extra couple minutes and put them on still green categories. All the way out.

Posted by marl_karx on 8/29/2020 3:27:00 AM (view original):

Posted by shoe3 on 8/28/2020 11:29:00 PM (view original):

Posted by marl_karx on 8/28/2020 8:24:00 PM (view original):

Posted by shoe3 on 8/28/2020 7:18:00 PM (view original):
Depending on how much you use on sets, I would set conditioning and defense at 16-20, Reb at 12-15, everything else at maintenance or just above (6-7 for BH & Pass, 3-4 for LP/Per), with remainder going to FT; or study hall, if FT is orange/red.

You would put him on maintenance in lp, per, bh, and pa even though he is green in those categories?

I do agree about overloading conditioning and defense though -- ath, def, and stm need to improve quickly so he is good enough to play the following season.

As a freshman yes, especially in a redshirt season, because of your last sentence. My approach is not necessarily to max him out or to get him as much overall development as possible, but to get him to be the best at what I want him to do, whatever I decide that is. As a forward, I would prioritize conditioning and defense first, followed by rebounding; then the scoring, then the BH/P last.

Assuming 5 years of development, with that work ethic, and figuring I can get him good playing time, if not starts by his 3rd (soph) season, I would expect to be starting to work on his scoring early that sophomore season, to make him a scoring threat for when he’s an upperclassman. The BH/P is mostly gravy; it’s not nothing, but even at the 3, it’s not going to move the needle a whole lot on his value if he still has significant conditioning, rebounding and scoring development to make. Probably moving up BH/P the end of the 4th year, and focusing on it the 5th, unless the scoring turns out to be really high/high.

My thoughts are

1) at 75 we he can grow insane overall and good in every category as a freshman. I also assume he will tap out by his senior year other than potentially lp/per

1a) the way lp/per growth work I'm looking at him as a scorer until proven otherwise

1b) this player projects mediocre unless he becomes a great scorer. I would say 30->90+ is too much to assume in either category but I would be hoping

1c) if you wait until he is upper class to try and gain final 25+ pts in scoring you're going to end up getting about one good half season as a senior over his entire career. Not sure its even worth it.

2) you're redshirting him because he sucks hard to start with rather than because he will benefit significantly from it as a player. I think he could grow fine as a low minute 11th/12th man and put the redshirt to better use.

1) I agree
1a) also agree
1b) here’s where we diverge a bit. I assume this is D3 or a low level D2 team, and I think this is a useful player at those levels without scoring, if the ath/def is up over 60 and rebounding is over 50 by the start of that soph season. This is basically how I look at my projects. I want them to be contributors by sophomore season, meaning be good defenders and either rebound or distribute fairly well.
1c) I would start LP/per at start of soph season (beginning of 3rd, if redshirted). If he’s truly high/high, putting 15-20 there should put him up over 50 in those categories by the end of the year. If he’s still green, then you can bomb with 25 or 30 in one of them. One of the reasons I would go a little higher than maintenance to start with them, like 4 instead of 3, is to see if one of them grows significantly without much investment, and if so, maybe start throwing a few extra over there early, say from the SH/FT pool, to get a head start. I really don’t see a much value in developing both H/H green LP and PER to max from 30, actually I think that’s a significant waste for most guard type players (so not this guy necessarily) because of how high LP lowers their 3pt shooting tendency, but certainly getting one of them close to max, and a good foundation on the other by the middle of his junior year will really make him into a key player for the program.
2) Kind of, but don’t forget IQ. Redshirting is an IQ investment, too, and those choices can have an impact on your team.

I definitely agree that if this guy turned into a stud shooting guard then LP would be kind of marginal since you often end up going +2 with them to maximize effective shooting. But its really hypothetical until you get a bead on which ratings are the big growers.

I think I am prejudiced against the jack-of-all-trades type which this guy could easily be, with all ratings ~60-65. I don't normally recruit that type player so I might be misevaluating here. Although I actually don't think we're in significant disagreement.

I'm not sure about IQs -- my brother is convinced that GPA (and by extension SH) affects IQ growth but I rarely put points into SH at all. I also don't really know how much WE affects IQ growth. But I would be expecting this guy to hit A/A+ before he graduates.

Posted by marl_karx on 8/29/2020 1:01:00 PM (view original):
I definitely agree that if this guy turned into a stud shooting guard then LP would be kind of marginal since you often end up going +2 with them to maximize effective shooting. But its really hypothetical until you get a bead on which ratings are the big growers.

I think I am prejudiced against the jack-of-all-trades type which this guy could easily be, with all ratings ~60-65. I don't normally recruit that type player so I might be misevaluating here. Although I actually don't think we're in significant disagreement.

I'm not sure about IQs -- my brother is convinced that GPA (and by extension SH) affects IQ growth but I rarely put points into SH at all. I also don't really know how much WE affects IQ growth. But I would be expecting this guy to hit A/A+ before he graduates.

HS gpa impacts IQ growth. college gpa and thus SH have no impact. just FYI this is not just my opinion but as close to established fact as we get.

i agree with you (and disagree with half of everything else said) though. jack of all trades guys... they basically are garbage.

the idea that the best approach here would be to do 12 in everything or whatever, a bit more cond and 10 in everything, i just don't see it. decide what role you want for this player and then pursue it aggressively. the best argument for the all 12s approach is 'you don't know the caps and therefore the role so let it ride a while until you figure it out'. but that would still be an argument that recognizes as soon as you understand what role you want for this player, you need to switch up your strategy to pursing that role aggressively. same story as practice planning for everybody else.

a lot of folks don't really see how important this mentality is. its *especially* important for end of season sophs playing key roles, but there are also many juniors who at end of season are leaving really critical points on the table in their key, role-centric areas, while they've ****** away minutes on random crap that is vastly less important. optimizing your practice plan for eventual maxing of everything is generally speaking a terrible approach. figure out what you really need from a guy and when you need it and make sure you get it. that is basically what this whole game is about. note this approach is *impossible* to execute well if you aren't planning ahead.