Is this Collusion? Topic

tecwrg
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A hypothetical situation:

Team A has the first pick of the amateur draft. They want a particular position, but are not seeing anybody they like at that position. They "shop" the first pick around. They make a gentleman's agreement with Team B . . . Team A will draft player X and trade him to Team B next season in return for player Y.

Collusion? Team A is performing a transaction (drafting a player) at Team B's request, so it could fit a very strict interpretation of the definition of collusion.

Would it make a difference if Team B could not see Player X in their draft list as opposed to they could see him?

This is very similar to the discussion a couple of weeks ago about pre-arranging a deal for the first pick in Rule 5, but with a twist (being able to see or not see the player to be drafted).

For the sake of argument, assume no "funny stuff" between the two owners making the deal . . . they're both on the straight and level (i.e. not aliases, etc.)
12/29/2009 7:12 AM
vladyhop
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Rule 5, its ok. The trade can be made the very next day.

Amateur draft, its not ok, ESPECIALLY if Team B couldn't see the player.
12/29/2009 7:13 AM
sergei91
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it's stupid, that's for sure

the team with the pick has to trust that they're not gonna get stuck with the player they don't want if something happens

12/29/2009 7:18 AM
sergei91
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the only times there should be gentlemen's agreements are:

sign and trade (meaning all in the same season, preferably before arb ends)

waiting to see if a player clears waivers and then trading to an interested party (who couldn't claim the player because of budget problems/etc)
12/29/2009 7:20 AM
MikeT23
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Collusion. You can't trade for future considerations. Owner turnover should tell you that it's not "fair" to incoming owners.

Of course, if they keep their yaps shut and just do the deal next season, no one knows.
12/29/2009 7:44 AM
travisg
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Quote: Originally posted by MikeT23 on 12/29/2009
Collusion.   You can't trade for future considerations.   Owner turnover should tell you that it's not "fair" to incoming owners.  Of course, if they keep their yaps shut and just do the deal next season, no one knows.

Agreed. Future seasons mean nothing now, because even the best owners aren't immune to job changes, family emergencies or worse. Except Mike, who everyone knows is a bot.
12/29/2009 7:46 AM
TheJester74
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How does Team B even know about an unseen player? I would have a hard time believing that if they can't even see the draftee they would agree to trade a player worthy of being offered for the first pick in the draft.
12/29/2009 7:47 AM
sculley
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First of all, it's not collusion. The definition of collusion implies secrecy. I posted the offer in world chat, therefore no secret deals, therefore no collusion.

With that said, if this is something the rest of the world is THAT against, I simply won't do it. I'm by no means unfair and not looking to make enemies over a video game.

Last, if anyone is willing to do this, there's a pretty much consensus #1 prospect they'd want. I'm not sending out the projections of the top 15 guys I see and telling them to take their pick. There would be no scouting information exchanged. If they're interested at all, they already know who they want, and so do I.
12/29/2009 8:06 AM
tecwrg
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Quote: Originally Posted By TheJester74 on 12/29/2009How does Team B even know about an unseen player? I would have a hard time believing that if they can't even see the draftee they would agree to trade a player worthy of being offered for the first pick in the draft.
B: "You see any great shortstops on your board, because I sure don't?"

A: "I see this guy. Here's his projections: blah, blah, blah"

B: "Oh yeah, that will work!"
12/29/2009 8:13 AM
tecwrg
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Quote: Originally Posted By sculley on 12/29/2009

First of all, it's not collusion. The definition of collusion implies secrecy. I posted the offer in world chat, therefore no secret deals, therefore no collusion.

With that said, if this is something the rest of the world is THAT against, I simply won't do it. I'm by no means unfair and not looking to make enemies over a video game.

Last, if anyone is willing to do this, there's a pretty much consensus #1 prospect they'd want. I'm not sending out the projections of the top 15 guys I see and telling them to take their pick. There would be no scouting information exchanged. If they're interested at all, they already know who they want, and so do I.

First of all, you didn't need to "out" yourself. I wasn't planning to do that, nor was that the intention of this thread. I was just looking to generate discussion about something other than asking MikeT23 what kind of underwear he prefers.

Second, I'll argue that this could be collusion, as least within the context of HBD. Collusion doesn't necessarily have to be secret. Anytime two owners work together to bend the rules, i.e. owner A performs a transaction on behalf of owner B because B couldn't do the transaction by himself, then it should be at least discussed.
12/29/2009 8:19 AM
MikeT23
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First of all, the owner(s) in question don't get to decide(neither do forum posters but that's beside the point) if it's collusion.

Second, making deals for future considerations is NOT part of HBD. There's a reason you can't trade first year players.

Third, pick a guy, shop him when he's available to be traded and make a deal.
12/29/2009 8:26 AM
MikeT23
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And, FWIW, you posted the two guys you were considering IN THIS VERY FORUM. Do you think anyone from your world might have access to this forum and NOT be able to see one of those two players?
12/29/2009 8:27 AM
MikeT23
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Lastly, if I say "I'm going to throw all 10 games to tec in Coop so he can win the division. He's giving me player A to do it" do you think that's no longer collusion because I announced my intentions?
12/29/2009 8:29 AM
sculley
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Sorry, I wanted to participate in the conversation and didn't see any reason to be mysterious and talk in the 3rd person.

And collusion does have to be secret. That's what the word means.

I carry a certain amount of integrity with me regardless of whether I'm at work, at the store or on the internet. I understand others don't, and therefore I'm fine with this being brought up for discussion.

I'll probably draft the same player regardless of if a deal gets made. I was just trying to generate some trade interest before the draft, because:

A: I didn't know you had to wait a season to trade prospects until you told me

B: This is the highest the potential draftees value is ever going to be. The list came out yesterday, and we all know there's nothing people love more than new things, and I bet if done in 2 vacuums I could find a better deal before the draft rather than after. Although now that I know I'd have to wait anyway, it's kind of a moot point.
12/29/2009 8:36 AM
MikeT23
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Quote: Originally Posted By MikeT23 on 12/29/2009Lastly, if I say "I'm going to throw all 10 games to tec in Coop so he can win the division. He's giving me player A to do it" do you think that's no longer collusion because I announced my intentions
12/29/2009 8:38 AM
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