is there ever a good time to cut players? Topic

My 1927 Cy Williams is hitting .170 .271 .275 in 230 PAs. 1934 Jimmy Dykes is hitting .168 .268 .223 in 201 PAs.

Is there ever a justified time to cut a starter? I have used 1927 Cy Williams for a lot of success in the past, but these guys are just killing me right now...

Im playing at Polo Ground if that matters.  Thanks for the input.
5/30/2011 10:30 PM
Well, the first thing you have to realize is the your 27 Cy is a pure HR hitter.  More specifically, with him, its generally all or nothing proposition as he won't hit for average, nor doubles or triples. But aside from maybe a little bad luck or other various factors that may be effecting his hitting, the park he's playing in is not conducive to his strengths in that the Polo Grounds promotes doubles, which Cy hardly hits, and suppresses batting average and HRs to a degree. While I would expect his numbers to be somewhat better than that which you described, but the Polo Grounds isn't doing him any favors.  Although his numbers are very likely to get better if you keep him, he probably won't be the force that you may have had in mind when drafting him.   Your guy would be better served and much more valuble by playing in parks such as Coors, Wrigley, and Atlanta Fulton County Stadium where they will not only increase his average, but his HRs as well. 

As for a justifiable time to dump an underperforming player, I may not be the best person to offer a suggestion because I'm known to have a very quick ax when it comes to dumping guys.  But to put it in a nutshell, you have to do what you feel is best after analyzing why the player may be performing so badly. Is he in a park which minimizes or takes away from his strengths? Is he facing an inordinate amount of good pitching (e.g., 08 Joss, 00 Pedro, or Maddux)? How important is a big HR bat in your lineup? Does his history suggest that he will perform better, etc.?  After taking such things into consideration, you have to do what you feel is best for your team and not fall in love with a player's name, because the only thing that counts in this game are numbers, not names. And while there is no hard and fast rule as to when to dump a player, it seems that most guys will give a player at least half the season to get it going. Me, personally, my cutoff point is generally a lot sooner, and from the numbers you described, I probably would've dumped him already. Good luck.
5/31/2011 12:41 AM
FWIW, here's my primary standard: If a drafted starter is underperforming and has a good salary AND the AAA draw and the nature of the competition have revealed a weakness somewhere else, I will waive that starter for a player who will likely do a little better (and no worse) than he had been performing but also leave me extra cash to fill and improve my lineup at the other position. If you can't work such a twofer, you're likely better off sticking with what you've got.
5/31/2011 12:52 AM
(Mostly) OL-only:

There are only four reasons to cut a guy.  None of them are that the guy is underperforming without an obvious explanation.  Three are that you screwed up while drafting.

1. You have a guy who's an obvious mismatch with your park.  You screwed up while drafting.
2. You need to add a player to mitigate crippling fatigue.  You screwed up while drafting.
3. You have an excess of PA or IP and can convert that into a big bench upgrade or a reliever (upgrade).*  You screwed up while drafting, but have an opportunity.
4. You struck gold (or at least bronze) with a prospect who can take over for a player you'd planned to use, and cash the planned-for guy in for an upgrade somewhere.

*Upgrade, or an additional arm.  You can get a good reliever or good platoon righty for the price of a good platoon righty or good reliever.
5/31/2011 12:58 AM
Okay, 5.

5. You have your ****** 200k players to spend, so why not?  Unless you're serious about staying in a lower bracket in the TOC.
5/31/2011 12:59 AM
I will draft two from 04 Augie Ojeda, 03 Wilson Delgado or 92 Donnie Hill with the intention of cutting them. All are pretty good hitting / mediocre fielding utility types who can give my starters an occasional break during the first 3/4 of the season and save some stamina for the stretch. The plan is to use them up before the transaction deadline and then dump their salaries and pick up the highest PA 200K player available to sit in AAA. This frees up a little cash (about 730K). Then I will dump whichever two relievers are performing most poorly and use the entire windfall to pick up the best available  arm for the stretch.

Bullpens seem to be the biggest crap shoot to me. I've had underachieving Milackis, Wickmans and Weilmans, while guys like Bob Miller and Ted Wingfield have shown me flashes of brilliance, so being able to bring in an extra arm worth 10-18 quality IP for the final 40-45 games can be a big help.
5/31/2011 3:47 AM

Can't argue with that strategy Joflo, but mine is quite the opposite in regard to the low PA type guys you mentioned.  Whereas you will burn them out and then dump them, I tend to stash them in AAA until the deadline and then bring them up as PHs in anticipation of the playoffs.  And you're definitely right about relievers being crapshoots, just as in RL, because I've had some quite expensive ones turn out to be duds which is why I generally stick to cheap late inning guys (26-30 IP for  $900K to $1mil). Guys who can close games successfully, but whom are not hard to dump or exchange if they underperform.

5/31/2011 7:51 AM
And Llamanunts, no offense intended, but you said "there are only four reasons to cut a guy" and that "none of them" involve underperformance without an obvious explanation. Well let me ask you this, because it once happended to me. Suppose you have 14 Steve Evans as your number three hitter playing in Kauffman Stadium in an OL, but yet, almost halfway through he's hitting only .250 and your team is hovering around the .500 mark.  I seriously doubt that I screwed up by drafting him for Kauffman, and I kept him at 100% from the beginning of the season as I do all of my starters throughout the year.  Now do you keep him and HOPE he turns it around (which he already had almost half a season to do), while continuing to kill your team in the process, or do dump him for a $5mil hitter who almost certainly will do better than a .250 avg?
5/31/2011 8:33 AM
Posted by llamanunts on 5/31/2011 12:58:00 AM (view original):
(Mostly) OL-only:

There are only four reasons to cut a guy.  None of them are that the guy is underperforming without an obvious explanation.  Three are that you screwed up while drafting.

1. You have a guy who's an obvious mismatch with your park.  You screwed up while drafting.
2. You need to add a player to mitigate crippling fatigue.  You screwed up while drafting.
3. You have an excess of PA or IP and can convert that into a big bench upgrade or a reliever (upgrade).*  You screwed up while drafting, but have an opportunity.
4. You struck gold (or at least bronze) with a prospect who can take over for a player you'd planned to use, and cash the planned-for guy in for an upgrade somewhere.

*Upgrade, or an additional arm.  You can get a good reliever or good platoon righty for the price of a good platoon righty or good reliever.
5. Your whole damn league is full of Addie Joss and 3-Finger Brown and you need to dump your HR guy for an AVG guy

This doesn't necessarily mean you screwed up, though I might argue you should expect nothing but deadballers in an OL.
5/31/2011 8:45 AM
Dead on Jfranco!!!!!!!
5/31/2011 9:04 AM
Posted by mixtroy on 5/31/2011 8:33:00 AM (view original):
And Llamanunts, no offense intended, but you said "there are only four reasons to cut a guy" and that "none of them" involve underperformance without an obvious explanation. Well let me ask you this, because it once happended to me. Suppose you have 14 Steve Evans as your number three hitter playing in Kauffman Stadium in an OL, but yet, almost halfway through he's hitting only .250 and your team is hovering around the .500 mark.  I seriously doubt that I screwed up by drafting him for Kauffman, and I kept him at 100% from the beginning of the season as I do all of my starters throughout the year.  Now do you keep him and HOPE he turns it around (which he already had almost half a season to do), while continuing to kill your team in the process, or do dump him for a $5mil hitter who almost certainly will do better than a .250 avg?
If you didn't screw up while drafting, you keep the guy.  You drafted him for a reason.  Trust yourself.
5/31/2011 9:41 AM
Posted by jfranco77 on 5/31/2011 8:45:00 AM (view original):
Posted by llamanunts on 5/31/2011 12:58:00 AM (view original):
(Mostly) OL-only:

There are only four reasons to cut a guy.  None of them are that the guy is underperforming without an obvious explanation.  Three are that you screwed up while drafting.

1. You have a guy who's an obvious mismatch with your park.  You screwed up while drafting.
2. You need to add a player to mitigate crippling fatigue.  You screwed up while drafting.
3. You have an excess of PA or IP and can convert that into a big bench upgrade or a reliever (upgrade).*  You screwed up while drafting, but have an opportunity.
4. You struck gold (or at least bronze) with a prospect who can take over for a player you'd planned to use, and cash the planned-for guy in for an upgrade somewhere.

*Upgrade, or an additional arm.  You can get a good reliever or good platoon righty for the price of a good platoon righty or good reliever.
5. Your whole damn league is full of Addie Joss and 3-Finger Brown and you need to dump your HR guy for an AVG guy

This doesn't necessarily mean you screwed up, though I might argue you should expect nothing but deadballers in an OL.
I'd say if you trust your process, stick with the guys you drafted.  If you realize you drafted wrong for the league (read: screwed up) then yeah, you should make a change.
5/31/2011 9:47 AM
Barring the mistakes at drafting covered here... and the potential of dropping bench guys and actually *upgrading*, there is little reason to drop a player.  All you are doing is the equivalent of moving from one roulette wheel to another... with the new roulette wheel being 10% worse for you. 
Over the course of a season (and 600-700+ PA's / 400+ Batters Faced), a starting player will usually end up performing somewhere near their expected level, which in an OL is probably slightly below their RL numbers.  Players that clump their bad results towards the beginning of the season will always appear to have disappointing numbers, even if they start improving.  Players that start off hot and gradually cool off don't appear to be as bad. 
Draft well to begin with and have patience, and you will most likely end up with what you expected to get... at the very least, your team might just start to improve as some of your competition WW's their way through a good chunk of their salaries.

As an aside, I just finished reading an interesting book which had a thing or two to say on the subject of probability and our inherent willingness to see patterns where there are none (or, not the ones we think we see)...
The Drunkards Walk: How Randomness Rules Our Lives by Leonard Mlodinow
5/31/2011 11:20 AM (edited)
The Drunkard's Walk is a fabulous book - should be required reading in every high school in the country.

The key thing to understand about WIS (though I recognize there is a small number of owners who disagree with this) is that you didn't draw a "bad" version of the player, just because he underperforms through the first X games of the season.  1927 Cy Williams is exactly the same for everyone who drafts him.  But when you engage in an exercise in probability, sometimes you end up with lousy results.  Dropping the player is not going to change his - or your - luck.
5/31/2011 11:36 AM
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