tried RS and then took off - like 20 times - I'm thinking I might as well give up, eh?

This has happened to me. It's frustrating see your player after the season, refusing to be RS the entire time, sitting with 0 games and 0 minutes as a soph, YET he was fine riding the bench, with no WE drop. I would like to see logic changes that produces WE drops if such a player doesn't get at least a few minutes a game. As is, it's simply not realistic for a RS to produce a huge drop in WE, while playing literally 0 minutes produces conentedness. 

This is exactly what happened to me last season with a soph PG. About the WE drop, it appears there is a slight 'glitch' that keeps the player from dropping WE. It is built into the game that whenever you restore eligibility, their WE returns to the full original WE. I experimented a bit with this, and after trying nothing for several days, his WE dropped due to lack of playing time. I then RS'd him, and when I removed the RS his WE returned to normal. It turned out to be kind of nice to not lose WE even though I will never get back that year of eligibility.

I've had some success going in 3 game increments.  Let him sit for 3 games and then try it.  If he won't accept, let him sit another 3 games and try it again.  Not sure if this was coincidental or not.

He'll take the redshirt next season now that he knows you mean business.

Encountering a failed redshirt makes me never want to attempt a redshirt again lol

I don't understand the logic of that statement at all...  Every time I see a failed redshirt it's just another reminder that it's ridiculously easy to remove the RS and make it as if it had never happened.  Not one of the more realistic facets of this game...

Posted by jskenner on 8/30/2011 9:34:00 AM (view original):
This has happened to me. It's frustrating see your player after the season, refusing to be RS the entire time, sitting with 0 games and 0 minutes as a soph, YET he was fine riding the bench, with no WE drop. I would like to see logic changes that produces WE drops if such a player doesn't get at least a few minutes a game. As is, it's simply not realistic for a RS to produce a huge drop in WE, while playing literally 0 minutes produces conentedness. 

js, I disagree. This would make it too easy to game the system to get a guy to RS.

The truth is that in real life, the vast majority of guys don't want anything to do with a RS. And almost no one would consider taking one if you don't tell them it might be a possibility during recruitment.

There is a mechanism to let recruits know exactly that. In D2 and D3, most guys are pulldowns, and I think from a logic standpoint, it's crazy to expect a guy like that to redshirt. In DI, higher-ranked guys won't redshirt, but many lower-ranked guys will. That seems right to me.

dalt, I'm not sure how having players who won't accept a RS having their WEs drop if not played at least a few minutes a game allows gaming of the system. I agree with all you said, except I can't see how any of it disagrees with any of what I said.

The truth is that in real life, the vast majority of guys don't want anything to do with a RS. And almost no one would consider taking one if you don't tell them it might be a possibility during recruitment.

This is just patently untrue.  At the most accessible level of the game - high D1 - recruits know they're valuable and redshirting is fairly rare.  At all other levels of the game it's far more commonplace.

Posted by jskenner on 8/30/2011 10:34:00 PM (view original):
dalt, I'm not sure how having players who won't accept a RS having their WEs drop if not played at least a few minutes a game allows gaming of the system. I agree with all you said, except I can't see how any of it disagrees with any of what I said.

You're right -- I misread your post. We agree. Order is restored to the universe!

Posted by dahsdebater on 8/31/2011 1:51:00 AM (view original):

The truth is that in real life, the vast majority of guys don't want anything to do with a RS. And almost no one would consider taking one if you don't tell them it might be a possibility during recruitment.

This is just patently untrue.  At the most accessible level of the game - high D1 - recruits know they're valuable and redshirting is fairly rare.  At all other levels of the game it's far more commonplace.

And you're right, too. I'm thinking more DI (the original poster is talking about DI). At D2/D3, it's much more common. But it's still discussed during recruiting.

That said, it still should not be common for a D2/D3 pulldown/dropdown to redshirt. That should be extremely rare.

Excellent, dalt. Order restored.

Posted by girt25 on 8/31/2011 7:11:00 AM (view original):

Posted by dahsdebater on 8/31/2011 1:51:00 AM (view original):

The truth is that in real life, the vast majority of guys don't want anything to do with a RS. And almost no one would consider taking one if you don't tell them it might be a possibility during recruitment.

This is just patently untrue.  At the most accessible level of the game - high D1 - recruits know they're valuable and redshirting is fairly rare.  At all other levels of the game it's far more commonplace.

And you're right, too. I'm thinking more DI (the original poster is talking about DI). At D2/D3, it's much more common. But it's still discussed during recruiting.

That said, it still should not be common for a D2/D3 pulldown/dropdown to redshirt. That should be extremely rare.

The crux of this discussion is whether those D2/D3 pulldowns have legitimate claim to value as freshmen.  I submit that 99.9% of them don't  - and the fact is that the most successful D2 and D3 programs are those who make frequent use of redshirts.

Over the last few seasons I've had extraordinary luck getting freshmen to accept redshirts with no loss of WE, simply by holding them out of both exhibitions first before redshirting.  It also helps if their given position is already deep.  But this season one of my 2 D2 recruits dumped half his WE when I redshirted (from 50 to 22) and I just didn't feel like removing and reapplying.  Hopefully some of that WE will come back for him when he's eligible next season and can actually play.

It will only come back slowly, as it normally would if he had 22 we to start with. There won't be any additional bump because he used to be at 50 we or something like that.
 
Also, you say, "the crux of this discussion is whether those D2/D3 pulldowns have legitimate claim to value as freshmen".

I totally disagree. Their value is artificially limited by the iq constraints that WIS has in place. But that doesn't change the fact that you're dealing with a guy who was a possible DI prospect and has now been convinced to go to a D2 school. That type of player should not be likely to redshirt, regardless of whether they will be an impact freshman.

If the litmus test was whether the freshman will be an impactful, then almost everyone would RS with no problem or future warning, and that's clearly not the answer.