Do top coaches actively seek to have a redshirt every season?

Or do they only redshirt when they have an 11th or 12th player who won't play and/or could use the improvement?

Are these teams usually down a player or two because they often have early entrants to the NBA draft and couldn't redshirt anybody even if they'd prefer to?

you are kinda on it, the answer is no. i don't use redshirts in d1 pretty much ever. maybe 1st or 2nd season of a rebuild or something. i like redshirts in general but its just not as viable at the really high end. especially for press on strong years - its more or less impossible to have a truly elite press team in this game without being 12 deep. if i'm running press and title hunting that season, i don't redshirt - period.

back in my early d2 days i would redshirt every year but that was before the changes to press. in d2 today, i imagine i wouldn't redshirt basically ever, once the program was up and running. even running man or zone i'd be pushing for a vs-press uptempo scheme, and i imagine i wouldn't be redshirting there, either (except in throwaway seasons). even in d1 where a vs-press uptempo is vastly less important to m2m and zone teams, you basically either aren't killing it in recruiting, and should be taking walkons instead - or you are killing it in recruiting, and have little use for the redshirt.

in short - redshirts are a really good tool for coaches to use all the way from the bottom of HD coaches up pretty far. but for the really top tier, they are situational and probably should be rare. my primary usage in d1 these days would probably be with jucos, there's some pretty significant value in redshirting the right juco in the right circumstance (when their 3rd year, assuming a juco 2, is a critical year, and they really need the time for iq or rating growth). but also in high d1, if a guy is good enough to redshirt, he's usually good enough to get an EE dice roll his junior year (his 4th year) and that substantially undermines the entire point of the redshirt.

Many coaches use a recruiting strategy of only going after the elite talent, and would rather take multiple walkons, rather than redshirt project players. If that’s the kind of strategy you want to use, then redshirting will rarely make sense. But that’s not the only way to play, or the only way to win championships.

Redshirts are a tool. You can use them strategically to add value to your team, absolutely. I redshirt for a couple different reasons. The best reason is a player who projects to be very good, and will benefit from an extra year of development and IQ. That’s obviously the ideal redshirt scenario. But every redshirted player who you don’t cut gets the 5th year IQ benefit, so that’s always a plus. Sometimes I’m taking a flyer on a guy, and if he doesn’t pan out, worst case I cut him if I get someone better. I don’t like that route, since I would rather look at the redshirt as an investment. So it’s obviously better when that investment pays off.

Another reason to redshirt, especially if you don’t play press, is that the game can cause unexpected problems, like lost battles and early entries (at D1). Having a mix of elite players with a backbone of 4 year program players, and a couple projects on every roster is a way to mitigate the potential harm of those problems, and lessen the impact of unexpected negative outcomes. Projects are generally pretty cheap, and typically don’t cost much more than a walkon to land. And the value they return as 3rd, 4th, 5th year players is often equivalent to players who have been battled extensively for. The real cost for those players is, of course, the scholarship resources you give up in not taking the walkon in their place, so the question always comes down to how highly you covet those resources in this current version of the game.

Posted by vegaskevin on 2/17/2021 12:33:00 PM (view original):
Do top coaches actively seek to have a redshirt every season?

Or do they only redshirt when they have an 11th or 12th player who won't play and/or could use the improvement?

Are these teams usually down a player or two because they often have early entrants to the NBA draft and couldn't redshirt anybody even if they'd prefer to?

I love using redshirts high d1 whenever I have a extra guard or big.

I often redshirt EE caliber players to get that extra year.

I've seen mrslam SR redshirt JUCOs a lot, SR redshirts are highly underrated in general because they're so effective from a recruiting resources standpoint.

Across all levels, when my team is running man or zone, I will actively try to redshirt a player. In those defenses I feel I don't need more than 10 active players, so having a 11th or 12th players play 3 minutes a game is a waste of a year.

Obviously, I have to battle for top recruits which usually means offering starts and minutes, but if there is an opportunity to get a player who might not be as good right away but will be useful when his IQs are higher, I will redshirt those players.

Posted by cubcub113 on 2/17/2021 3:45:00 PM (view original):

Posted by vegaskevin on 2/17/2021 12:33:00 PM (view original):
Do top coaches actively seek to have a redshirt every season?

Or do they only redshirt when they have an 11th or 12th player who won't play and/or could use the improvement?

Are these teams usually down a player or two because they often have early entrants to the NBA draft and couldn't redshirt anybody even if they'd prefer to?

I love using redshirts high d1 whenever I have a extra guard or big.

I often redshirt EE caliber players to get that extra year.

I've seen mrslam SR redshirt JUCOs a lot, SR redshirts are highly underrated in general because they're so effective from a recruiting resources standpoint.

these are great answers for cases coaches can use. i try to steer clear of senior redshirting because i think its ridiculous and should be patched, but its clearly a valuable strategy. depth is too important a lot of times to take that hit, if you are title-hunting that year, but as always outside of title seeking years, there's tons of stuff that makes sense in the pursuit of your best title shot later. this is a great example.

on the other hand, IMO you are pushing the caliber of coach where redshirting EE caliber players no longer makes sense. but i know where you are coming from. the place the big shift happens is with those amazing guys who are either high risk sophs or junior year are basically gone - where you can make them look like fr/so that year instead. however, the only circumstance where i recruit those types, due to the EE risk, is when they are going to be elite sophs (and thus quality freshman), and under that paradigm the rationale breaks down (because they are highly valuable every year without the redshirt, so there is no extra year even when they stay an extra year - and/so your EE risk of them leaving before getting elite is actually higher, plus you've cost yourself significant recruiting resources. perhaps most importantly for truly elite teams, their true 2nd year is vastly more difficult to make an elite one if you redshirt them, which was the pre-condition of the player being worthwhile in the first place, and which is a central theme in the jump to elite d1 coaching - building championship ready sophs, that is).

if you are recruiting those really high EE risks who take till their 3rd year to get amazing... my advice would be to stop. but redshirting them is ok i guess. its really hard to get the elite guys to redshirt but i suppose its not such a bad idea if they'll tolerate it. you just can't compete every year at a really high level like that though, only some years, and i've seen how you coach - you recruit well enough to build amazing programs, and you have a lot of good coaching ideas. but you are still learning the finer points of team composition and coaching like everyone else. so even though its not so bad at the level of success you have today, its probably holding you back already, and you are too good not to start that transition from building really good teams sometimes, to trying to build really good teams every season (assuming you still have that hunger to keep improving, if not its not a good time to make that switch!). there's just not that many coaches who could someday build a program that could compete hard for the title every year, but i think you are one of them.

https://www.whatifsports.com/hd/PlayerHistory/Ratings.aspx?&pid=4353676

not to be too one-sided - there's an example of an awesome redshirt candidate. redshirting that d+ prestige recruit made delaware state's championship in his senior year possible. absolutely impossible without (we got quite lucky as it was, but still). redshirting can be amazing.

Posted by gillispie1 on 2/17/2021 4:35:00 PM (view original):
i agree with shoe in theory but i do just want to comment, when it comes to elite talent snobbery, i'm pretty far down the stack. there was only about a one year period in my HD career where i considered myself to be recruiting at a truly elite level. the thing i do better than anyone is being able to make the most from the least amount of talent, and even with that being the core of my approach, which is sort of what shoe is trying to hit things from, i consider regular redshirting to be unviable for elite d1 play. you definitely don't need elite talent to be great at this game, that's sort of a core tenant of my philosophy, and i have no trouble building top 5 teams from C to B prestige with 0-1 draft board players in today's version of the game.

where i am a total snob though, is what i consider elite play. redshirts are a great strategy for many coaches in HD to use. especially in the lower divisions, very good teams by normal standards can find meaningful value from redshirting, and definitely lots of folks should use them - not suggesting anyone should stop. i just get vibe from the question about what is theoretically sound - if you are seeking to build elite d1 teams - is regular redshirting probably going to be part of the strategy that gets you there? no. i like to answer questions from the standpoint of, what should i do if i am an upcoming coach who wants to some day coach at an elite level, and wants to use strategies now that are most similar to what i would use then. that is where i have a particular area of expertise, and the answer from that angle is a pretty strong no, and i'll leave it to other coaches to answer from the perspective of what good coaches should do or could do. my answer is, regular redshirting was fundamentally unsound for elite d1 play in 2.0, and its even less sound now. that said, tons of coaches SHOULD use them anyway, because they are great in a wide range of circumstances. just not in elite d1 play.

This is an ok answer for pressing teams, but it’s just not a good answer for zone or man teams. Coaches who run zone or man - at any division - can compete at a championship level using redshirts on a regular basis. Calling it “fundamentally unsound” is just silly.

Posted by cubcub113 on 2/17/2021 3:45:00 PM (view original):

Posted by vegaskevin on 2/17/2021 12:33:00 PM (view original):
Do top coaches actively seek to have a redshirt every season?

Or do they only redshirt when they have an 11th or 12th player who won't play and/or could use the improvement?

Are these teams usually down a player or two because they often have early entrants to the NBA draft and couldn't redshirt anybody even if they'd prefer to?

I love using redshirts high d1 whenever I have a extra guard or big.

I often redshirt EE caliber players to get that extra year.

I've seen mrslam SR redshirt JUCOs a lot, SR redshirts are highly underrated in general because they're so effective from a recruiting resources standpoint.

The senior thing is funny. I doubt I was the first to do it, although I was the first I know of to talk about it on the forums. I am ambivalent on whether it’s a “bug“ that needs to be fixed, though I doubt it is intended as it is used. Since I don’t value the resources nearly as much as many folks seem to, I lean toward nah. The “fix” that would make the most sense, if that’s what is needed, would be to force the team to redshirt before recruiting starts. But generally I’d prefer to keep those players as a viable option for more human rosters, rather than dis-incentivize coaches trying to utilize alternate paths.

Peter McMillon isn’t a normal case, but is a good example of how taking a flyer on a project can pay off. In that class, I had gotten 2 bad beats, and was looking at the prospect of possibly losing 2 or 3 frontcourt players to early entries in this year’s senior class, so I needed some depth. I signed McMillon and another guy (who might end up getting the senior treatment next season, we’ll see how it goes) for that purpose - insurance, and depth. Now realistically, I could not have expected that his ath and defense would have grown above 75, so the fact that he’s going to end up at 85 ath, 97+ reb, 90+ def, 100 BLK, and eventually 100 LP is pretty sweet, and not common. But that’s a very legit all conference Big 10 player I got as an afterthought for a few handfuls of AP, and a redshirt year.

Similarly, Gordon Elkins was a decent bit player as a 3rd year soph on a very deep final four team, but is a starter now on a much more top heavy team. And after bad recruit gens and bad recruiting luck the past couple seasons, Oregon would be screwed without him this season (might be screwed even with him next season, but that’s another story). Using redshirts strategically for depth purposes like this, to prepare your team for places where it may go through lean years, that’s part of long term team building. It’s not necessarily vital to building a championship team. But it’s something you can do.

I haven't reacted "elite" status but have recently coached some fairly strong teams and do reach the highest level of recruits every couple recruiting cycles. I've had a redshirt on probably 75% of my D1 teams. When I chase the EE guys, sure I'm throwing minutes/starts always so a redshirt is a non-starter but my teams are mostly made up of 25% EE high caliber, 50% probably getting drafted as a sr or at least useful at D1, 25% dice rolls on potential. I find redshirts super helpful on both of the 2nd groups.

I've talked about this before (and I know Billy isnt a fan) but i fairly commonly recruit an elite player and a high potential guy or role player for the same position at the same time. If I get the elite guy, I redshirt the other. If I dont, then I still fill my rotation. Also, having a redshirt is a really nice way to start next years class. You will have fewer "must fill" spots which allows you to take more chances or go truly all in on the players you really want.

I can see why the top 5 year over year teams that gobble up EE type players wouldnt not regularly use a RS. I personally think anyone below that (that doesnt play FCP) is making a mistake at D1 not at least semi-regularly using a RS.

Posted by texashick on 2/17/2021 6:52:00 PM (view original):
I haven't reacted "elite" status but have recently coached some fairly strong teams and do reach the highest level of recruits every couple recruiting cycles. I've had a redshirt on probably 75% of my D1 teams. When I chase the EE guys, sure I'm throwing minutes/starts always so a redshirt is a non-starter but my teams are mostly made up of 25% EE high caliber, 50% probably getting drafted as a sr or at least useful at D1, 25% dice rolls on potential. I find redshirts super helpful on both of the 2nd groups.

I've talked about this before (and I know Billy isnt a fan) but i fairly commonly recruit an elite player and a high potential guy or role player for the same position at the same time. If I get the elite guy, I redshirt the other. If I dont, then I still fill my rotation. Also, having a redshirt is a really nice way to start next years class. You will have fewer "must fill" spots which allows you to take more chances or go truly all in on the players you really want.

I can see why the top 5 year over year teams that gobble up EE type players wouldnt not regularly use a RS. I personally think anyone below that (that doesnt play FCP) is making a mistake at D1 not at least semi-regularly using a RS.

i think that is a perfectly reasonable take. i would almost go as far as endorsing your final paragraph (if semi-regularly means sometimes or whatever, like i don't think it has to be a regular tool, but definitely should be a tool in the kit, and totally reasonable to use it regularly). redshirts are definitely a valuable tactic to be used at most levels. the biggest problem is time - at most levels, you have it. at the highest, you don't. but in all cases, the main thing is to make sure the timing makes sense. with a redshirt, you have a worse team for the next 4 seasons, and a better one in the 5th. if that 5th season isn't an important one, the redshirt is almost always a terribly play - if the 5th season is critical, it can be fantastic. nobody knows what the 5th season is going to be, so folks trying to compete every year are going to choke on selling out the next 4.

a lot of people use the 'extra year' view of redshirting, but its so time dependent, and i find it obfuscates things, mostly because of how hard it is to weigh, objectively, the cost of using 5 seasons of roster spots and resources to get 4 better seasons from a player. i like to look at redshirting more directly - the first 4 seasons, the player is behind on rating, we, and iq growth (usually by season 4 its a wash, but still). then in season 5 you get a presumably great player season instead of an average one (don't think about how its probably really some other dude's freshman season, that sort of is bad math for an objective analysis, because you aren't factoring in that dude's higher than expected value for the rest of his career). this view of looking at redshirting highlights the reality - 4 worse seasons for 1 better one. the other way folks imply its 4 better seasons for a worse one, but that is highly misleading, if not factually inaccurate.

quick note... that 5th season i described as presumably great - it better be! if its not, you can't justify a redshirt, period (for any coach at any level, not just elite ones - but i do only consider freshman in any of this). don't redshirt players without really quality ratings in that 5th season, you simply can't make up for being worse for 4 seasons (i'd also be ok calling it 3 seasons and a tie) with that 5th season unless the player is really good in that 5th season. the problem in d1 is the really good players can EE at least by their 4th season (as a junior) and the increased EE odds wrecks your return on investment, *especially* given 3.0 EE rules and recruiting crapshoots that make the EE cost much higher than it was.

here's some other stuff i consider fundamentally unsound that are nonetheless perfectly viable at most levels: zone, fb/fcp, any combo defense, 20 minutes of iq practice, any form of uptempo press as a team building strategy (but totally acceptable situationally)

some stuff i consider fundamentally sound: man, press, all tempos

+1 to Texashick’s approach.

Gil, you seem to be looking at this like a dichotomy between taking a project you might redshirt, and taking an elite player next year. That’s a flawed premise, your calculus is way off there. If you take the walkon instead of the project, you are not choosing next year’s elite player. You are choosing *less than half* of a *roll* on next year’s elite player (since resources of one open scholarship are not nearly enough to go “all in” on any player, certainly not to seriously compete for most elite ones). This isn’t even a bird in the hand vs 2 in the bush; this is a bird in the hand vs a prettier one perched on a branch dangling over the edge of a cliff. It’s not a *terrible* play to choose walkons, by any means. It always depends on your system, and what else is going on with your team - and of course, what kind of projects are available to you.

I was curious, so looking at my current Oregon team, which has 3 formerly redshirted players on the current roster, not including this year’s redshirt. Two of them are closer to ideal - in other words, they’re not making my team worse in any of the seasons they play - and one who turns out to be a dud who I would like to cut if I get a good opportunity (ie better recruit gen and good recruiting luck). This team has a title, 6 E8s and 3 F4s (inclusive) in the last 10 seasons. On those teams, so going back 14 recruiting seasons, I’ve had 10 redshirts. It’s viable at a high level, even when there’s a swing and miss from time to time.