And just picked up my first FCP team. First instinct is to switch D but I hate to waste a fairly decent team. Have searched a few past posts but want to make sure I know how to recruit this style? Can someone give me a few quick pointers on recruiting and then executing this defense? Thanks!

Stamina is extremely important. I'd do your best to have 11 playable guys, and really 12 is ideal. I never RS with my FCP teams, but there are seasons where I'll end up with a walk-on if recruiting goes really sideways.

I find the DE rating to be slightly less important than it is in man defenses. IQ, and SPD/ATH seem to help produce steals and cut down on fouls.

Just going back to it myself after a couple years away.

One advantage of recruiting with FCP is that you can offer EVERY recruit minutes and get it done easily. Bad part is fulfilling those 25 minute starting promises on low starting stamina guys will hurt your team more. Rebounding does not matter as much.

It doesn't take nearly the time as M2M does. Everyone is already double teamed so instead of identifying the individual guys they will attack you with you will need to identify how their overall team will be attacking.

Posted by dw172300 on 10/12/2021 5:25:00 PM (view original):
Stamina is extremely important. I'd do your best to have 11 playable guys, and really 12 is ideal. I never RS with my FCP teams, but there are seasons where I'll end up with a walk-on if recruiting goes really sideways.

I find the DE rating to be slightly less important than it is in man defenses. IQ, and SPD/ATH seem to help produce steals and cut down on fouls.

I agree with everything stated here. Except one thing was left out...... don't forget stamina! With a side of stamina. With a lil stamina mixed in.

All kidding aside, DEF rating is extremely over valued here. Sure it's nice to have. But those guards you see that don't get targeted heavily that look like 45 ATH/DEF and 95 SPD/PER/BH/PAS/ST.... get one. You'll be glad you did. (Not a entire team full. But at least one)

Posted by topdogggbm on 10/12/2021 9:33:00 PM (view original):

Posted by dw172300 on 10/12/2021 5:25:00 PM (view original):
Stamina is extremely important. I'd do your best to have 11 playable guys, and really 12 is ideal. I never RS with my FCP teams, but there are seasons where I'll end up with a walk-on if recruiting goes really sideways.

I find the DE rating to be slightly less important than it is in man defenses. IQ, and SPD/ATH seem to help produce steals and cut down on fouls.

I agree with everything stated here. Except one thing was left out...... don't forget stamina! With a side of stamina. With a lil stamina mixed in.

All kidding aside, DEF rating is extremely over valued here. Sure it's nice to have. But those guards you see that don't get targeted heavily that look like 45 ATH/DEF and 95 SPD/PER/BH/PAS/ST.... get one. You'll be glad you did. (Not a entire team full. But at least one)

At D2 or small conference you can get by with a player that low in ath/def in a press, if he brings other things, sure. At high levels of D1, he’s probably gotta be a deep reserve. And especially if you run FB with the press, you do need to stock deep reserves, so by all means take that guy if the choice is that or a walkon.

But I would push back on the notion that defense is “extremely over valued” in a press. It doesn’t have *quite* amount of impact as it does in man or zone, that’s true; but it’s still very important. The big problem with a guy as low as 45, or even 60 in ath/def, is foul trouble, which you really can’t afford in a press. You’re going to commit fouls, that’s a given. But if one guy is piling up 4-5 in limited floor time, that puts a lot of pressure on everyone else, and can lead to serious fatigue problems.

Related to that, the thing I would say that hasn’t really been mentioned, is that roster balance is really important. 5 guards, 5 frontcourt, 2 SF; or 7 guards, 5 frontcourt works too. And be sure you have at least 140 (in FB/P, I aim for 150, and try to get closer to 160) stamina in the top 2 slots at every position for your top 10. Don’t get caught with low stamina at any position. In press, guys with stamina maxing out at 70 really can’t be considered starters. And if they’re just barely over 70, and you need to start them, their backups need to have stamina *at least* around 70. If you don’t play FB, you can get around this a little by slowdown, but you’re still going to run into fatigue problems, especially if you’re up against a smart human who knows how to exploit it. With Kentucky this year, I often move my backup guards with the starters, which is to say they are playing a position based on fatigue and substitution patterns, not so much based on matchups or skill attributes.

Thanks guys and thanks shoe for the deep dive. Those details are critical. Sounds like a lot of work! I will plan to stick with it and plan within these parameters.

I obviously meant a player like that as a reserve. That's why I said "one of them". 90% of my gaming success is press. You can get by without that heavy defense. I'm telling you. You may not WANT to aim for low DEF or anything. But it won't hurt you as bad as you believe.

the way i look at it is that ath/def is almost as valuable in the press as in anything else. its impact on fg% is similar (although with a non trivial reduction in fga by press opponents from the TOs and fouls), and the foul reduction is arguably even more important. its just that in press, there is more that matters. the size of the pie is bigger, you have more to work on, and if you fill that whole pie, you have a significantly better final product because of the extra things you do (speed for turnovers, depth and stamina to survive and turnovers and everything i guess).

so on a relative basis, sure, ath/def are a little less valuable in press, but i do think its mostly because the pie is bigger.

i do agree with dogg for sure that crappier defenders who are really good scorers are valuable players. i think the ath/def paradigm of HD is real and has been the main line for success for almost 10 years now... no denying that really. but the entire way i've said that a lot folks are over-selling on ath/def in certain players. you can't have too much ath/def really, its undeniably great, but you can give up too much to get it. in some players, you sometimes need to prioritize offense. or offense and bh/pass or offense and reb, perhaps. but especially per scoring players from the 1-3, ideally with good bh/pass, you can definitely justify having a weaker defensive player or two in the way dogg says. i just think this is mostly true in all schemes, not really special to press. and while they clearly can make great reserves, the good ones can make really good starters, too.

Saying “a lot folks are over-selling on ath/def in certain players” is a lot different than saying defense is “extremely over valued” in press. That’s why I pushed back. I certainly agree a lot of folks over-sell on ath/def in all sets, and press as well - and if you look at any of my press teams, I think that’s probably apparent. You don’t need all your players getting floor time to have upper 90s defense, like some teams seem to aspire to. It’s certainly nice and can be intimidating if that’s your thing, but the wall isn’t as unassailable as one might imagine, and in press brings even *a little* less value than the other sets. But just a little. Calling it extremely over valued is overstating the case by quite a lot. Going as low as 45 in ath and def in order to grab perimeter offensive firepower (which you will likely only be able to use effectively for 10-12 mpg) gives up an awful lot. Stay in the 60s and low 70s on ath/def, on the other hand, even if the firepower is just adequate and not elite, say also 70s, rather than 90s, now you’ve got a guy who can pull more minutes, can be a primary backup instead of a deep reserve, and isn’t a sieve on defense while he’s on the floor. Those guys are also cheap at D1.

As someone that has to play against Shoe/Kentucky's press, stacking your class a bit to get higher IQs is as intimating as seeing a m2m team with 88 avg defense. When your bench is getting that many minutes, it's pretty important that they have IQs similar to the starters. It's very hard to find weaknesses against that.

Posted by shoe3 on 10/13/2021 1:49:00 PM (view original):
Saying “a lot folks are over-selling on ath/def in certain players” is a lot different than saying defense is “extremely over valued” in press. That’s why I pushed back. I certainly agree a lot of folks over-sell on ath/def in all sets, and press as well - and if you look at any of my press teams, I think that’s probably apparent. You don’t need all your players getting floor time to have upper 90s defense, like some teams seem to aspire to. It’s certainly nice and can be intimidating if that’s your thing, but the wall isn’t as unassailable as one might imagine, and in press brings even *a little* less value than the other sets. But just a little. Calling it extremely over valued is overstating the case by quite a lot. Going as low as 45 in ath and def in order to grab perimeter offensive firepower (which you will likely only be able to use effectively for 10-12 mpg) gives up an awful lot. Stay in the 60s and low 70s on ath/def, on the other hand, even if the firepower is just adequate and not elite, say also 70s, rather than 90s, now you’ve got a guy who can pull more minutes, can be a primary backup instead of a deep reserve, and isn’t a sieve on defense while he’s on the floor. Those guys are also cheap at D1.

?I stand by my opinion. I also believe in the stamina game as well. About 80% of my championships are press. And my Missouri title was fastbreak press. We had the team ST rating up above 85 or more, that's hard to beat. That wasn't the only attribute that made a difference. But that was one of the biggest factors that made us stand out

Different ways to win

Posted by topdogggbm on 10/13/2021 3:53:00 PM (view original):

Posted by shoe3 on 10/13/2021 1:49:00 PM (view original):
Saying “a lot folks are over-selling on ath/def in certain players” is a lot different than saying defense is “extremely over valued” in press. That’s why I pushed back. I certainly agree a lot of folks over-sell on ath/def in all sets, and press as well - and if you look at any of my press teams, I think that’s probably apparent. You don’t need all your players getting floor time to have upper 90s defense, like some teams seem to aspire to. It’s certainly nice and can be intimidating if that’s your thing, but the wall isn’t as unassailable as one might imagine, and in press brings even *a little* less value than the other sets. But just a little. Calling it extremely over valued is overstating the case by quite a lot. Going as low as 45 in ath and def in order to grab perimeter offensive firepower (which you will likely only be able to use effectively for 10-12 mpg) gives up an awful lot. Stay in the 60s and low 70s on ath/def, on the other hand, even if the firepower is just adequate and not elite, say also 70s, rather than 90s, now you’ve got a guy who can pull more minutes, can be a primary backup instead of a deep reserve, and isn’t a sieve on defense while he’s on the floor. Those guys are also cheap at D1.

?I stand by my opinion. I also believe in the stamina game as well. About 80% of my championships are press. And my Missouri title was fastbreak press. We had the team ST rating up above 85 or more, that's hard to beat. That wasn't the only attribute that made a difference. But that was one of the biggest factors that made us stand out

Different ways to win

I don’t recall anyone disagreeing with the notion that stamina is vital to press - and especially FB/press - at any point in this thread or any other. And sure, if your top 10 all have stamina in the mid 80s, you aren’t likely to need the 45/45 ath/def guy for much anyway, which is the point, right? As long as his exposure is limited, his impact is minimal, which is true of walkons as well, of course. It’s difficult to do that, but if you’re able to pull it off, you’ll have a great team. And again, if we’re talking about sacrificing that ath/def down to 65/70, I’m on board all day long - as you can see. But 65/70 is quite a bit different than 45/45.

I'm with Dogg here. I performed an experiment a couple seasons back where every player on my roster had no higher than 50 DEF at d2 running press. I didn't win a title, but I was in the title game. I also had a couple other deep runs. Tark West Virginia State(WVAC) season 152-161. And I've used this strategy moving forward. I still try and get DEF, but I don't sweat it if it doesn't happen.

And yes, STA is king!

I love punting ath/def in a flex/press. Give me that speed, shooting, and ball skills!

P.S. I'm not very good at this game.

Posted by Arfy on 10/14/2021 12:23:00 PM (view original):
I'm with Dogg here. I performed an experiment a couple seasons back where every player on my roster had no higher than 50 DEF at d2 running press. I didn't win a title, but I was in the title game. I also had a couple other deep runs. Tark West Virginia State(WVAC) season 152-161. And I've used this strategy moving forward. I still try and get DEF, but I don't sweat it if it doesn't happen.

And yes, STA is king!

Yeah, at D2. Like I said, the kind of player doggg is talking about can be something more than a deep reserve for a team that wants to win at D2, or maybe a small conference team that is looking to win the conference and get to the NT, not so much compete on the national stage yet. On a power conference team for a team wanting to compete for a title, you have to significantly limit that player’s exposure if he’s on your roster. Defense is not overvalued to the point where a 45/45 ath/def player can be consistently featured on a power conference team that intends to win. Is it possible to get away with having one and winning anyway, if other factors, like excellent stamina, are in place? Of course, lots of things are possible, including winning with walkons on press teams, under essentially the same circumstances (though a typical walkon brings *a little* less immediate value than the defensive liability who has perimeter firepower, the walkon also turns over into recruiting resources right away, so…).