Posted by dBKC on 4/16/2025 4:33:00 PM (view original):

Let’s say that Savoy Jr. has two job offers on the table.

One is a job that pays $1,000,000/year for 1 year. After this year is over, he can do whatever he likes.

Another offer is a job that pays $80,000 with great security.

The average job available to Savoy Jr on the market in a pinch pays $75,000.

Savoy:

“Son, my advanced calculation says that you should take the $80,000 for 40 years. 80,000 x 40 is THREE POINT TWO MILLION DOLLARS, which is 3.2x more than the one million dollars. Also, my numbers say you can just work 20+ jobs at once since I didn’t factor in time as a resource.”

Savoy Jr.:

“But Dad, I can invest most of the $1,000,000 and work the $75k job for the other 39 years if I need to. That equals 3.9million plus whatever I get in dividends and th-

Savoy:

“HOW MANY TIMES DO I HAVE TO TELL YOU THAT 80,000 x 40 IS WAY MORE THAN 1,000,000 x 1?!?

MY STATISTIC SAYS ITS BETTER!”

Re: Issel and Curry^^^^

Savoy, I challenge you to a contest. I will put up $200 if you put up $20. The next ODL or $52m draft league, I get Curry and you get Issel as our first round picks. The rest of the draft goes on as normal. Whoever has more wins that season between us wins the bet. If you’re down, I’ll ask Ben or Midge to help make it happen.

ooh! what if we did an open league and you could only build around Dan Issell or Steph Curry and we can see how many of 23 teams not run by Savoy pick Steph?

Posted by dBKC on 4/16/2025 5:47:00 PM (view original):

Posted by savoybg on 4/16/2025 5:44:00 PM (view original):

Posted by copernicus on 4/16/2025 5:42:00 PM (view original):
so you're saying Doo playing less than 20 mpg and scoring 10 ppg is the same thing as MVP Doo? Is that the hill you want to stand on? you are worse than bosoxbill

Mailman #1, Stockton (who is even better than him according to your whole silly thing) #3, both in their actual primes and they've got nothing to show for it? better check your numbers man...

Doo playing 20minutes a game is far better than Having Thurl Bailey and Blue Edwards playing 38 minutes a game each.

Wait, you’re actually on to something for once!

So would you also agree that having Curry for 28 minutes could maybe, just maybe, be better than Issel for 40?

on the other hand if he actually applied his methodology he would most definitely find that it said the opposite of his assertion

Posted by dBKC on 4/16/2025 5:52:00 PM (view original):

Posted by savoybg on 4/16/2025 5:48:00 PM (view original):

Posted by dBKC on 4/16/2025 5:43:00 PM (view original):

Posted by savoybg on 4/16/2025 5:39:00 PM (view original):

Posted by Midge on 4/16/2025 5:31:00 PM (view original):
Why do they play? To win championships. If I’m in the fan base of a team I would take Walton and his two rings over Thaddeus Young any day. If I am the player I would rather spend half my career injured and win two championships than whatever Thaddeus Young did.

They play way more to make money than to win championships. Unless you think that Charles Barkley, Karl Malone and Elgin Baylor would all trade their Hall of Fame careers with Robert Horry and his 7 championships.

Would Chris Paul trade his Hall of Fame career with Derek Fisher or Tony Parker?

Would John Stockton trade his career as the all time assists and steals leader so he could have Ron Harper's 3 championships?

These players have you guys conned.

No one here is claiming Horry>Barkley. We’re stating that getting a guy who gives you championship equity for 3-5 years is way better than having a guy who is “meh” for 18 years, and that looking at career value with no modifications is not a good way of looking at it.

I rank guys on half career value and half peak value. Peak being best 7 seasons. You guys are free to come up with your own system. Something other than I'm gonna give these guys the eye test and then I am gonna pull the rankings out of my *** based on nothing but championships and what I (remember that I) saw. As if anybody saw enough of any players to simply rank them that way. How are you gonna rank players that you never saw?

Without numbers you guys would have no clue who the best players were.

Dude.

you are on a website full of guys who play a simulated basketball game with just the numbers. We all have our own spreadsheets and stats and formulas. And we’re all better than you at this game, I don’t mean that in a mean way, it’s just the truth. And none of us have equations that show that Thad Young > Bill Walton.

When I join a new hobby and am one of the worst people in the group/have the most to learn, I listen to the people who are better than me and try to learn. I don’t spend all day telling all of them who are better than me that they’re wrong about everything.

My rankings are not about the sim. They about the real life players. I've never taken any real time to study this sim. I've played probably less than 5% as many leagues as any of you have. When I did seriously study a fantasy game years ago using the actual stats of real players every week, I dominated that league. Winning like 7 division titles and 4 championships in 8 seasons. After determining the value of each stat used by the game to produce the 3 game scores every week, I wrote a complicated script for the old DOS program called Paradox. It gave me the offensive, defensive, and rebounding value for every player based on how that sim valued things.

Other then when the clock runs out, every possession ends with either a FGA, FTAs, or a turnover. The only way to get 2 possessions in a row while the clock is running is an offensive rebound. A steal is better than a blocked shot because it ends the opposition's possession without them scoring AND gives you the ball. A blocked shot just ends the possession but creates a loose ball or rebound situation in which the offense gets the ball back. Fouling a lot gives your opponent more free throws, and almost every player scores more points on average from 2 or 3 free throws than from a FG attempt. That's how that fantasy league worked You had to fill 144 minutes for each of the 5 positions using real life stats from that week. So it was bad if one of your top players was on a team that only played 2 games that week. The max that any one player could play in that game was 130 minutes a week. If you could not fill all your minutes at a certain position for the week, you were given a replacement level player to fill those minutes. Someone who was much worse than a league average player. The game was called Dream Season Basketball. I still have the 4 championship banners hanging in the other room.

Posted by savoybg on 4/16/2025 6:32:00 PM (view original):

Posted by dBKC on 4/16/2025 5:52:00 PM (view original):

Posted by savoybg on 4/16/2025 5:48:00 PM (view original):

Posted by dBKC on 4/16/2025 5:43:00 PM (view original):

Posted by savoybg on 4/16/2025 5:39:00 PM (view original):

Posted by Midge on 4/16/2025 5:31:00 PM (view original):
Why do they play? To win championships. If I’m in the fan base of a team I would take Walton and his two rings over Thaddeus Young any day. If I am the player I would rather spend half my career injured and win two championships than whatever Thaddeus Young did.

They play way more to make money than to win championships. Unless you think that Charles Barkley, Karl Malone and Elgin Baylor would all trade their Hall of Fame careers with Robert Horry and his 7 championships.

Would Chris Paul trade his Hall of Fame career with Derek Fisher or Tony Parker?

Would John Stockton trade his career as the all time assists and steals leader so he could have Ron Harper's 3 championships?

These players have you guys conned.

No one here is claiming Horry>Barkley. We’re stating that getting a guy who gives you championship equity for 3-5 years is way better than having a guy who is “meh” for 18 years, and that looking at career value with no modifications is not a good way of looking at it.

I rank guys on half career value and half peak value. Peak being best 7 seasons. You guys are free to come up with your own system. Something other than I'm gonna give these guys the eye test and then I am gonna pull the rankings out of my *** based on nothing but championships and what I (remember that I) saw. As if anybody saw enough of any players to simply rank them that way. How are you gonna rank players that you never saw?

Without numbers you guys would have no clue who the best players were.

Dude.

you are on a website full of guys who play a simulated basketball game with just the numbers. We all have our own spreadsheets and stats and formulas. And we’re all better than you at this game, I don’t mean that in a mean way, it’s just the truth. And none of us have equations that show that Thad Young > Bill Walton.

When I join a new hobby and am one of the worst people in the group/have the most to learn, I listen to the people who are better than me and try to learn. I don’t spend all day telling all of them who are better than me that they’re wrong about everything.

My rankings are not about the sim. They about the real life players. I've never taken any real time to study this sim. I've played probably less than 5% as many leagues as any of you have. When I did seriously study a fantasy game years ago using the actual stats of real players every week, I dominated that league. Winning like 7 division titles and 4 championships in 8 seasons. After determining the value of each stat used by the game to produce the 3 game scores every week, I wrote a complicated script for the old DOS program called Paradox. It gave me the offensive, defensive, and rebounding value for every player based on how that sim valued things.

Other then when the clock runs out, every possession ends with either a FGA, FTAs, or a turnover. The only way to get 2 possessions in a row while the clock is running is an offensive rebound. A steal is better than a blocked shot because it ends the opposition's possession without them scoring AND gives you the ball. A blocked shot just ends the possession but creates a loose ball or rebound situation in which the offense gets the ball back. Fouling a lot gives your opponent more free throws, and almost every player scores more points on average from 2 or 3 free throws than from a FG attempt. That's how that fantasy league worked You had to fill 144 minutes for each of the 5 positions using real life stats from that week. So it was bad if one of your top players was on a team that only played 2 games that week. The max that any one player could play in that game was 130 minutes a week. If you could not fill all your minutes at a certain position for the week, you were given a replacement level player to fill those minutes. Someone who was much worse than a league average player. The game was called Dream Season Basketball. I still have the 4 championship banners hanging in the other room.

That’s cool, but my point was: if you think we don’t look at numbers and we’re just using the eye test or “championships,” you’re severely mistaken. This is the LAST place you should accuse that of, and I don’t know how that’s not apparent to you?

Posted by dBKC on 4/16/2025 6:03:00 PM (view original):

Posted by dBKC on 4/16/2025 4:33:00 PM (view original):

Let’s say that Savoy Jr. has two job offers on the table.

One is a job that pays $1,000,000/year for 1 year. After this year is over, he can do whatever he likes.

Another offer is a job that pays $80,000 with great security.

The average job available to Savoy Jr on the market in a pinch pays $75,000.

Savoy:

“Son, my advanced calculation says that you should take the $80,000 for 40 years. 80,000 x 40 is THREE POINT TWO MILLION DOLLARS, which is 3.2x more than the one million dollars. Also, my numbers say you can just work 20+ jobs at once since I didn’t factor in time as a resource.”

Savoy Jr.:

“But Dad, I can invest most of the $1,000,000 and work the $75k job for the other 39 years if I need to. That equals 3.9million plus whatever I get in dividends and th-

Savoy:

“HOW MANY TIMES DO I HAVE TO TELL YOU THAT 80,000 x 40 IS WAY MORE THAN 1,000,000 x 1?!?

MY STATISTIC SAYS ITS BETTER!”

Re: Issel and Curry^^^^

Savoy, I challenge you to a contest. I will put up $200 if you put up $20. The next ODL or $52m draft league, I get Curry and you get Issel as our first round picks. The rest of the draft goes on as normal. Whoever has more wins that season between us wins the bet. If you’re down, I’ll ask Ben or Midge to help make it happen.

How many times do I have to say that Curry will likely become more valuable than Issel when this season's numbers are added in. My rankings do not rank seasons, they just rank careers. This sim only used individual seasons, so it doesn't apply to my rankings.

Tell you what I'd do though. I will make the best on 2 conditions.

1 - I get to pick which seasons are used for both players.
2 - We judge who wins the bet based on each player's MVP score in the sim rather than on which team wins more games. My rankings are about individual players, not about team wins. My $20 against your $200. Are we on?

So I'll make the bet if you take Curry's 2009-2010 season and I take Issel's 1972-73 season, and if the winner of the bet goes by each player's MVP score in the sim rather than by team wins.

Posted by dBKC on 4/16/2025 6:34:00 PM (view original):

Posted by savoybg on 4/16/2025 6:32:00 PM (view original):

Posted by dBKC on 4/16/2025 5:52:00 PM (view original):

Posted by savoybg on 4/16/2025 5:48:00 PM (view original):

Posted by dBKC on 4/16/2025 5:43:00 PM (view original):

Posted by savoybg on 4/16/2025 5:39:00 PM (view original):

Posted by Midge on 4/16/2025 5:31:00 PM (view original):
Why do they play? To win championships. If I’m in the fan base of a team I would take Walton and his two rings over Thaddeus Young any day. If I am the player I would rather spend half my career injured and win two championships than whatever Thaddeus Young did.

They play way more to make money than to win championships. Unless you think that Charles Barkley, Karl Malone and Elgin Baylor would all trade their Hall of Fame careers with Robert Horry and his 7 championships.

Would Chris Paul trade his Hall of Fame career with Derek Fisher or Tony Parker?

Would John Stockton trade his career as the all time assists and steals leader so he could have Ron Harper's 3 championships?

These players have you guys conned.

No one here is claiming Horry>Barkley. We’re stating that getting a guy who gives you championship equity for 3-5 years is way better than having a guy who is “meh” for 18 years, and that looking at career value with no modifications is not a good way of looking at it.

I rank guys on half career value and half peak value. Peak being best 7 seasons. You guys are free to come up with your own system. Something other than I'm gonna give these guys the eye test and then I am gonna pull the rankings out of my *** based on nothing but championships and what I (remember that I) saw. As if anybody saw enough of any players to simply rank them that way. How are you gonna rank players that you never saw?

Without numbers you guys would have no clue who the best players were.

Dude.

you are on a website full of guys who play a simulated basketball game with just the numbers. We all have our own spreadsheets and stats and formulas. And we’re all better than you at this game, I don’t mean that in a mean way, it’s just the truth. And none of us have equations that show that Thad Young > Bill Walton.

When I join a new hobby and am one of the worst people in the group/have the most to learn, I listen to the people who are better than me and try to learn. I don’t spend all day telling all of them who are better than me that they’re wrong about everything.

My rankings are not about the sim. They about the real life players. I've never taken any real time to study this sim. I've played probably less than 5% as many leagues as any of you have. When I did seriously study a fantasy game years ago using the actual stats of real players every week, I dominated that league. Winning like 7 division titles and 4 championships in 8 seasons. After determining the value of each stat used by the game to produce the 3 game scores every week, I wrote a complicated script for the old DOS program called Paradox. It gave me the offensive, defensive, and rebounding value for every player based on how that sim valued things.

Other then when the clock runs out, every possession ends with either a FGA, FTAs, or a turnover. The only way to get 2 possessions in a row while the clock is running is an offensive rebound. A steal is better than a blocked shot because it ends the opposition's possession without them scoring AND gives you the ball. A blocked shot just ends the possession but creates a loose ball or rebound situation in which the offense gets the ball back. Fouling a lot gives your opponent more free throws, and almost every player scores more points on average from 2 or 3 free throws than from a FG attempt. That's how that fantasy league worked You had to fill 144 minutes for each of the 5 positions using real life stats from that week. So it was bad if one of your top players was on a team that only played 2 games that week. The max that any one player could play in that game was 130 minutes a week. If you could not fill all your minutes at a certain position for the week, you were given a replacement level player to fill those minutes. Someone who was much worse than a league average player. The game was called Dream Season Basketball. I still have the 4 championship banners hanging in the other room.

That’s cool, but my point was: if you think we don’t look at numbers and we’re just using the eye test or “championships,” you’re severely mistaken. This is the LAST place you should accuse that of, and I don’t know how that’s not apparent to you?

In this debate people keep bringing up championships. For me they have NOTHING at all to do with comparing 2 players. There are far too many other factors involved in championships, not the least of which is that there are 5 players on the court for each team, not just one.

or you could pick each player's best seasons?

Posted by savoybg on 4/16/2025 6:44:00 PM (view original):

Posted by dBKC on 4/16/2025 6:03:00 PM (view original):

Posted by dBKC on 4/16/2025 4:33:00 PM (view original):

Let’s say that Savoy Jr. has two job offers on the table.

One is a job that pays $1,000,000/year for 1 year. After this year is over, he can do whatever he likes.

Another offer is a job that pays $80,000 with great security.

The average job available to Savoy Jr on the market in a pinch pays $75,000.

Savoy:

“Son, my advanced calculation says that you should take the $80,000 for 40 years. 80,000 x 40 is THREE POINT TWO MILLION DOLLARS, which is 3.2x more than the one million dollars. Also, my numbers say you can just work 20+ jobs at once since I didn’t factor in time as a resource.”

Savoy Jr.:

“But Dad, I can invest most of the $1,000,000 and work the $75k job for the other 39 years if I need to. That equals 3.9million plus whatever I get in dividends and th-

Savoy:

“HOW MANY TIMES DO I HAVE TO TELL YOU THAT 80,000 x 40 IS WAY MORE THAN 1,000,000 x 1?!?

MY STATISTIC SAYS ITS BETTER!”

Re: Issel and Curry^^^^

Savoy, I challenge you to a contest. I will put up $200 if you put up $20. The next ODL or $52m draft league, I get Curry and you get Issel as our first round picks. The rest of the draft goes on as normal. Whoever has more wins that season between us wins the bet. If you’re down, I’ll ask Ben or Midge to help make it happen.

How many times do I have to say that Curry will likely become more valuable than Issel when this season's numbers are added in. My rankings do not rank seasons, they just rank careers. This sim only used individual seasons, so it doesn't apply to my rankings.

Tell you what I'd do though. I will make the best on 2 conditions.

1 - I get to pick which seasons are used for both players.
2 - We judge who wins the bet based on each player's MVP score in the sim rather than on which team wins more games. My rankings are about individual players, not about team wins. My $20 against your $200. Are we on?

So I'll make the bet if you take Curry's 2009-2010 season and I take Issel's 1972-73 season, and if the winner of the bet goes by each player's MVP score in the sim rather than by team wins.

Lmao. How about you just pick a season where Issel has a higher salary than Curry in WIS since you’ve used that multiple times to say he’s “better” in WIS?

Posted by copernicus on 4/16/2025 6:10:00 PM (view original):
ooh! what if we did an open league and you could only build around Dan Issell or Steph Curry and we can see how many of 23 teams not run by Savoy pick Steph?

If the choices were 2009-2010 Steph or 1972-1973 Curry, I would expect that no one would pick Steph. But we are not arguing here about seasons. And the argument is moot because Issel is only ranked slightly ahead in my rankings because he is still in mid career while Issel hasn't played in like 40 years. Once Curry's career is over he will rank higher than Issel here.

Posted by savoybg on 4/16/2025 5:58:00 PM (view original):

Posted by dBKC on 4/16/2025 5:47:00 PM (view original):

Posted by savoybg on 4/16/2025 5:44:00 PM (view original):

Posted by copernicus on 4/16/2025 5:42:00 PM (view original):
so you're saying Doo playing less than 20 mpg and scoring 10 ppg is the same thing as MVP Doo? Is that the hill you want to stand on? you are worse than bosoxbill

Mailman #1, Stockton (who is even better than him according to your whole silly thing) #3, both in their actual primes and they've got nothing to show for it? better check your numbers man...

Doo playing 20minutes a game is far better than Having Thurl Bailey and Blue Edwards playing 38 minutes a game each.

Wait, you’re actually on to something for once!

So would you also agree that having Curry for 28 minutes could maybe, just maybe, be better than Issel for 40?

Anybody might have a better 28 minutes than anybody else's 40 minutes in one particular game. And if the game is taking place in the 50s or 60s or in the NBA before 1979, Issel would be far more valuable than Curry with no 3 point shot. But if your choice is Curry for 28 minutes for 82 games, or Issel for 40 minutes for 82 games, I'm taking Issel even with 3 point shots. He'd be playing 43% more minutes for the season. Check the salaries on here for Curry playing about 2300 minutes and Issel playing about 3300 minutes and see who is higher.

I'll do it for you.

18-19 Curry - 2331 minutes - $6.366M
73-74 Issel - 3268 minutes - $7.472M

How about we just use these two seasons since you literally said “I’m taking Issel”

Posted by dBKC on 4/16/2025 6:51:00 PM (view original):

Posted by savoybg on 4/16/2025 6:44:00 PM (view original):

Posted by dBKC on 4/16/2025 6:03:00 PM (view original):

Posted by dBKC on 4/16/2025 4:33:00 PM (view original):

Let’s say that Savoy Jr. has two job offers on the table.

One is a job that pays $1,000,000/year for 1 year. After this year is over, he can do whatever he likes.

Another offer is a job that pays $80,000 with great security.

The average job available to Savoy Jr on the market in a pinch pays $75,000.

Savoy:

“Son, my advanced calculation says that you should take the $80,000 for 40 years. 80,000 x 40 is THREE POINT TWO MILLION DOLLARS, which is 3.2x more than the one million dollars. Also, my numbers say you can just work 20+ jobs at once since I didn’t factor in time as a resource.”

Savoy Jr.:

“But Dad, I can invest most of the $1,000,000 and work the $75k job for the other 39 years if I need to. That equals 3.9million plus whatever I get in dividends and th-

Savoy:

“HOW MANY TIMES DO I HAVE TO TELL YOU THAT 80,000 x 40 IS WAY MORE THAN 1,000,000 x 1?!?

MY STATISTIC SAYS ITS BETTER!”

Re: Issel and Curry^^^^

Savoy, I challenge you to a contest. I will put up $200 if you put up $20. The next ODL or $52m draft league, I get Curry and you get Issel as our first round picks. The rest of the draft goes on as normal. Whoever has more wins that season between us wins the bet. If you’re down, I’ll ask Ben or Midge to help make it happen.

How many times do I have to say that Curry will likely become more valuable than Issel when this season's numbers are added in. My rankings do not rank seasons, they just rank careers. This sim only used individual seasons, so it doesn't apply to my rankings.

Tell you what I'd do though. I will make the best on 2 conditions.

1 - I get to pick which seasons are used for both players.
2 - We judge who wins the bet based on each player's MVP score in the sim rather than on which team wins more games. My rankings are about individual players, not about team wins. My $20 against your $200. Are we on?

So I'll make the bet if you take Curry's 2009-2010 season and I take Issel's 1972-73 season, and if the winner of the bet goes by each player's MVP score in the sim rather than by team wins.

Lmao. How about you just pick a season where Issel has a higher salary than Curry in WIS since you’ve used that multiple times to say he’s “better” in WIS?

Because I've never said anything about seasons, and pages ago I said that Curry was "better" per minute than Issel, but he just hasn't played enough minutes YET to rank higher in my rankings. He may pass Issel by when I update the ratings after the playoffs are done.

Let's do this. I'll take a season of Wilt and you take a season of Russell, and whichever player ranks higher in the sim's MVP list wins the bet.

Posted by savoybg on 4/16/2025 6:53:00 PM (view original):

Posted by copernicus on 4/16/2025 6:10:00 PM (view original):
ooh! what if we did an open league and you could only build around Dan Issell or Steph Curry and we can see how many of 23 teams not run by Savoy pick Steph?

If the choices were 2009-2010 Steph or 1972-1973 Curry, I would expect that no one would pick Steph. But we are not arguing here about seasons. And the argument is moot because Issel is only ranked slightly ahead in my rankings because he is still in mid career while Issel hasn't played in like 40 years. Once Curry's career is over he will rank higher than Issel here.

that's the problem with you - to the rest of us it is already 1000% clear who the better player is was or will be - Steph already did everything he needed to do to prove his point

Posted by dBKC on 4/16/2025 6:56:00 PM (view original):

Posted by savoybg on 4/16/2025 5:58:00 PM (view original):

Posted by dBKC on 4/16/2025 5:47:00 PM (view original):

Posted by savoybg on 4/16/2025 5:44:00 PM (view original):

Posted by copernicus on 4/16/2025 5:42:00 PM (view original):
so you're saying Doo playing less than 20 mpg and scoring 10 ppg is the same thing as MVP Doo? Is that the hill you want to stand on? you are worse than bosoxbill

Mailman #1, Stockton (who is even better than him according to your whole silly thing) #3, both in their actual primes and they've got nothing to show for it? better check your numbers man...

Doo playing 20minutes a game is far better than Having Thurl Bailey and Blue Edwards playing 38 minutes a game each.

Wait, you’re actually on to something for once!

So would you also agree that having Curry for 28 minutes could maybe, just maybe, be better than Issel for 40?

Anybody might have a better 28 minutes than anybody else's 40 minutes in one particular game. And if the game is taking place in the 50s or 60s or in the NBA before 1979, Issel would be far more valuable than Curry with no 3 point shot. But if your choice is Curry for 28 minutes for 82 games, or Issel for 40 minutes for 82 games, I'm taking Issel even with 3 point shots. He'd be playing 43% more minutes for the season. Check the salaries on here for Curry playing about 2300 minutes and Issel playing about 3300 minutes and see who is higher.

I'll do it for you.

18-19 Curry - 2331 minutes - $6.366M
73-74 Issel - 3268 minutes - $7.472M

How about we just use these two seasons since you literally said “I’m taking Issel”

Okay, I take 73-74 Issel and you take 18-19 Curry, and whichever player ranks higher on the sim's MVP scale wins the bet.

You’re literally the most ridiculous, hard headed person I’ve ever met online.

You said you’d take 73-74 Issel over 18-19 Curry. That’s a direct quote from you. I challenged you my $200 vs your $20. You declined. Cool, now stop posting 800 times per day with your nonsense. Not even YOU will backup your foolish takes when I give you 10:1 odds.