No, usually when you get down to the root cause it is personal choice.

Posted by strikeout26 on 9/13/2021 9:09:00 PM (view original):
You are rolling the dice with anything you do in life. The evidence that children have any long term effects from Covid is sparse. It appears that it's very rare. I'm sorry your sister is struggling. Based on your age, I'm guessing she's probably somewhere between 24-32. Assuming that I guessed her age range correctly and that she was healthy prior to contracting Covid, the chance that she would have had that serious of a long term effect from it were seriously low as well. Everything we do in life carries risk. With children, we know as a fact that the pandemic policies have taken more of a toll on their mental health than the actual virus has taken on their physical health.

***I hope your sister recovers soon. I will be praying for her.

Yeah, it's a balancing thing. I think schools should probably be in person at this point. However, we should be as safe as we can. It just frustrates me when the complications with this virus boil down to just counting bodies. Long COVID is more common than you might assume. I'm betting the longer we study this topic, the more long-term effects we'll find, even among kids.

Do you have a shred of evidence to support that? I get that you're forecasting, but give me something. I've seen nothing that shows that it's super-prevalent.

Posted by strikeout26 on 9/13/2021 9:12:00 PM (view original):
You just listed a bunch of reasons why unvaccinated people are a danger to themselves, not to everyone else. If you are vaccinated, you should be back normal. You are safe. If you're not back to normal, that's your choice.

... you might need to re-read that list. For example, if new and more deadly variants spread because of unvaccinated communities, and those variants bypass the vaccine's effectiveness, that IS a danger to me. Everything I listed is an example of how spread in unvaccinated communities could impact my life, as a vaccinated person.

Also, studies have proven that masks are terrible for a child's development.

Posted by strikeout26 on 9/13/2021 9:15:00 PM (view original):
No, usually when you get down to the root cause it is personal choice.

You can probably guess what my next question is: why do some races seem to, on average, make worse or different personal choices? And if you answer "because of culture," I'm gonna ask why the cultures differ. When you get down to it, the only explanations are racism or some intrinsic differences.

Posted by tangplay on 9/13/2021 9:17:00 PM (view original):

Posted by strikeout26 on 9/13/2021 9:12:00 PM (view original):
You just listed a bunch of reasons why unvaccinated people are a danger to themselves, not to everyone else. If you are vaccinated, you should be back normal. You are safe. If you're not back to normal, that's your choice.

... you might need to re-read that list. For example, if new and more deadly variants spread because of unvaccinated communities, and those variants bypass the vaccine's effectiveness, that IS a danger to me. Everything I listed is an example of how spread in unvaccinated communities could impact my life, as a vaccinated person.

That is your only bullet point that COULD effect you. Everything else that you mentioned only affects unvaccinated people.

Posted by strikeout26 on 9/13/2021 9:17:00 PM (view original):
Do you have a shred of evidence to support that? I get that you're forecasting, but give me something. I've seen nothing that shows that it's super-prevalent.

From what I understand, around 10-20% who get the virus of people have effects from COVID that last at least 3 months or so (or longer).

Like I said, this is something that we don't fully understand yet, and won't for a while. My sister, for example, is being transferred to some hospitals in bigger cities so that they can study the effects more. She's also being treated with some experimental medicines and such. But here's some articles on what we currently know:

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-01935-7
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7927578/

Can you send some of that evidence on masks affecting children?

Posted by tangplay on 9/13/2021 9:19:00 PM (view original):

Posted by strikeout26 on 9/13/2021 9:15:00 PM (view original):
No, usually when you get down to the root cause it is personal choice.

You can probably guess what my next question is: why do some races seem to, on average, make worse or different personal choices? And if you answer "because of culture," I'm gonna ask why the cultures differ. When you get down to it, the only explanations are racism or some intrinsic differences.

We've had this discussion ad nauseum. The Brookings institute posted a study years ago that has become somewhat well known. But it said that if you do 3 things, you won't live in poverty: graduate HS. get a job, wait until your married to have children. Everyone has the opportunity to do all 3 of those. If you choose not to, that's on you. Obviously past racism has led to culturally defencies today. That's a given, but the opportunity is now there for everyone. It's up to individual to take advantage of it.

My adopted son was at my house a while back. I asked him specifically about this. He spent the majority of his childhood in a high-crime part of town and his biological family still lives there. His response was to "end social welfare programs." Essentially, he said that they remove all incentive to succeed in black communities. There's quite a bit of evidence to support his opinion too when you delve into it.

Posted by strikeout26 on 9/13/2021 9:20:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tangplay on 9/13/2021 9:17:00 PM (view original):

Posted by strikeout26 on 9/13/2021 9:12:00 PM (view original):
You just listed a bunch of reasons why unvaccinated people are a danger to themselves, not to everyone else. If you are vaccinated, you should be back normal. You are safe. If you're not back to normal, that's your choice.

... you might need to re-read that list. For example, if new and more deadly variants spread because of unvaccinated communities, and those variants bypass the vaccine's effectiveness, that IS a danger to me. Everything I listed is an example of how spread in unvaccinated communities could impact my life, as a vaccinated person.

That is your only bullet point that COULD effect you. Everything else that you mentioned only affects unvaccinated people.

• We both agree that COVID spreads more in the unvaccinated than the vaccinated. If an unvaccinated person spreads the virus to me or my family, and we have a breakthrough case and die or have severe or long term symptoms, then unvaccinated people have harmed me.
• You agreed with the variant one.
• The more the virus spreads, the more pressure (justified or not) that leaders have to implement strict mandates. I had to start wearing masks at work again primarily due to spread among the unvaccinated. This is a minor issue, sure, but unvaccinated people have affected me.
• Let's say tens, maybe hundreds of thousands more unvaccinated people die as a result of the pandemic. You don't think that will have ANY trickle-down effects among the vaccinated?

Posted by strikeout26 on 9/13/2021 9:27:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tangplay on 9/13/2021 9:19:00 PM (view original):

Posted by strikeout26 on 9/13/2021 9:15:00 PM (view original):
No, usually when you get down to the root cause it is personal choice.

You can probably guess what my next question is: why do some races seem to, on average, make worse or different personal choices? And if you answer "because of culture," I'm gonna ask why the cultures differ. When you get down to it, the only explanations are racism or some intrinsic differences.

We've had this discussion ad nauseum. The Brookings institute posted a study years ago that has become somewhat well known. But it said that if you do 3 things, you won't live in poverty: graduate HS. get a job, wait until your married to have children. Everyone has the opportunity to do all 3 of those. If you choose not to, that's on you. Obviously past racism has led to culturally defencies today. That's a given, but the opportunity is now there for everyone. It's up to individual to take advantage of it.

My adopted son was at my house a while back. I asked him specifically about this. He spent the majority of his childhood in a high-crime part of town and his biological family still lives there. His response was to "end social welfare programs." Essentially, he said that they remove all incentive to succeed in black communities. There's quite a bit of evidence to support his opinion too when you delve into it.

Social welfare programs don't just apply to white people. So while I am predictable (and we have had this argument repeatedly), you're gonna have to give me a reason why this seems to impact black people disproportionately; why black people seem less likely to take advantage of the opportunities to not live in poverty.

Until you get to a root cause (which as I stated before can ONLY be environmental (racism) or genetic), I'm going to keep asking the same question over and over again.

It doesn't impact black people disproportionately. It impacts certain areas disproportionately. It's more geographical than it is race based. The county that I lived in in GA was 92% white and had the highest poverty rate in GA. Forbes also listed it as the poorest town in GA. The same can be said about Appalachia. It's predominantly white and poor.

Now if you're asking why black people tend to be poorer, that's has a lot to do with generational wealth. What to do about that is not clear. Throwing money at the problem has proved ineffective. We have spent $20T on the war on poverty and it has not shown results.

Posted by tangplay on 9/13/2021 9:28:00 PM (view original):

Posted by strikeout26 on 9/13/2021 9:20:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tangplay on 9/13/2021 9:17:00 PM (view original):

Posted by strikeout26 on 9/13/2021 9:12:00 PM (view original):
You just listed a bunch of reasons why unvaccinated people are a danger to themselves, not to everyone else. If you are vaccinated, you should be back normal. You are safe. If you're not back to normal, that's your choice.

... you might need to re-read that list. For example, if new and more deadly variants spread because of unvaccinated communities, and those variants bypass the vaccine's effectiveness, that IS a danger to me. Everything I listed is an example of how spread in unvaccinated communities could impact my life, as a vaccinated person.

That is your only bullet point that COULD effect you. Everything else that you mentioned only affects unvaccinated people.

• We both agree that COVID spreads more in the unvaccinated than the vaccinated. If an unvaccinated person spreads the virus to me or my family, and we have a breakthrough case and die or have severe or long term symptoms, then unvaccinated people have harmed me.
• You agreed with the variant one.
• The more the virus spreads, the more pressure (justified or not) that leaders have to implement strict mandates. I had to start wearing masks at work again primarily due to spread among the unvaccinated. This is a minor issue, sure, but unvaccinated people have affected me.
• Let's say tens, maybe hundreds of thousands more unvaccinated people die as a result of the pandemic. You don't think that will have ANY trickle-down effects among the vaccinated?

• The odds of you even getting sick from a breakthrough case are extremely rare. Virtually all of the breakthrough deaths have been people 65 or older with at least 3 underlying health conditions.
• Their is zero evidence that vaccinated people should be required to wear masks. If your boss is requiring it, then he/she is anti-data. If your city is requiring it, then they are anti-data. The unvaccinated are not effecting you here. Stupid people in power are (or at least anti-science people are).
• No I do not, unless we allow it.

Posted by strikeout26 on 9/13/2021 9:37:00 PM (view original):
It doesn't impact black people disproportionately. It impacts certain areas disproportionately. It's more geographical than it is race based. The county that I lived in in GA was 92% white and had the highest poverty rate in GA. Forbes also listed it as the poorest town in GA. The same can be said about Appalachia. It's predominantly white and poor.

Now if you're asking why black people tend to be poorer, that's has a lot to do with generational wealth. What to do about that is not clear. Throwing money at the problem has proved ineffective. We have spent $20T on the war on poverty and it has not shown results.

Yeah, black people tend to be poorer today mostly because of generational wealth, and they have less generational wealth because of racism, which was my point.

We've litigated the solutions stuff before and we just disagree. Obviously just giving people money doesn't solve all of these problems, however I would contend that solutions require significant financial investment. We've agreed on some things and disagreed on others.

re the vaccine argument - we'll have to agree to disagree on the other three points. I think it's pretty obvious that all of the examples I gave would affect me (or my family), even though we are vaccinated.

Regardless, if you agree on the variants argument, in my mind that's single-handedly enough to show that it should be a goal of government to get as many vaccinated as possible. Otherwise, MY health (and the health of millions of vaccinated people) are at risk. Biden's EO falls under that goal. As a conservative libertarian, of course you'll disagree and I understand why.