I feel like this is WIS essentially saying, "You asked for firings, we'll give you firings."

But firings for the sake of firings--change for the sake of change--is not how this should be implemented. As people have said, this "all or nothing" approach will almost certainly drive away loyal customers at a much faster rate than it will bring in new customers.

Also: I'm concerned that Adam hasn't popped back into the thread. I'm not in the discord much, so I don't know if he's discussing these things there. But this is a situation that should be fluid, not "This is how it is now, good luck." Not with as many glaring and obvious issues as the original model has.

Baseline prestige/school name/firing tier

ACC:

A+ - Duke (HIGH TIER)
A+ - North Carolina (HIGH TIER)
A - Maryland (HIGH TIER)
A- - North Carolina St. (MID TIER)
A- - Georgia Tech (MID TIER)
A- - Boston College (MID TIER)
A- - Wake Forest (MID TIER)
B+ - Virginia (MID TIER)
B - Clemson (LOW TIER)
B - Florida St. (LOW TIER)
B - Miami FL (LOW TIER)
B - Virginia Tech (LOW TIER)

Big 12:

A+ - Kansas (HIGH TIER)
A- - Oklahoma (MID TIER)
B - Iowa St. (LOW TIER)
B - Oklahoma St. (LOW TIER)
B - Texas A&M (LOW TIER)
B - Missouri (LOW TIER)
B - Texas Tech (LOW TIER)
B - Texas (LOW TIER)
B- - Kansas St. (NO TIER)
B- - Colorado (NO TIER)
B- - Nebraska (NO TIER)
B- - Baylor (NO TIER)

Big East:

A+ - Connecticut (HIGH TIER)
A+ - Syracuse (HIGH TIER)
A- - Georgetown (MID TIER)
A- - Louisville (NO TIER)** The Cardinals are surely in the Mid Tier
A- - Cincinnati (MID TIER)
B+ - Villanova (MID TIER)
B+ - Pittsburgh (MID TIER)
B - West Virginia (LOW TIER)
B - Providence (LOW TIER)
B - Seton Hall (LOW TIER)
B - St. John’s (LOW TIER)
B- - Rutgers (NO TIER)

Big Ten:

A+ - Illinois (HIGH TIER)
A+ - Michigan St. (HIGH TIER)
A- - Indiana (MID TIER)
A- - Wisconsin (MID TIER)
B+ - Purdue (MID TIER)
B+ - Ohio St. (MID TIER)
B - Iowa (LOW TIER)
B - Notre Dame (LOW TIER)
B - Michigan (LOW TIER)
B - Minnesota (LOW TIER)
B- - Penn St. (NO TIER)
B- - Northwestern (NO TIER)

Pac-10:

A+ - Arizona (HIGH TIER)
A+ - UCLA (HIGH TIER)
A- - Stanford (MID TIER)
B - Arizona St. (LOW TIER)
B - California (LOW TIER)
B - Oregon (LOW TIER)
B - Oregon St. (LOW TIER)
B - USC (LOW TIER)
B - Washington (LOW TIER)
B - Washington St. (LOW TIER)
B- - Hawaii (NO TIER)
B- - Fresno St. (NO TIER)

SEC:

A+ - Kentucky (HIGH TIER)
A- - Florida (MID TIER)
B+ - Arkansas (MID TIER)
B+ - Tennessee (MID TIER)
B - Auburn (LOW TIER)
B - Alabama (LOW TIER)
B - Mississippi (LOW TIER)
B - Mississippi State (LOW TIER)
B - South Carolina (LOW TIER)
B - Vanderbilt (LOW TIER)
B - Georgia (LOW TIER)
B - LSU (LOW TIER)

Also:

B - Dayton [A10] (LOW TIER)
B - Temple [A10] (LOW TIER)
B - St. Joseph’s [A10] (LOW TIER)
B - Xavier [A10] (LOW TIER)
B - Memphis [CUSA] (LOW TIER)
B - Marquette [HORIZON] (LOW TIER)
B- - DePaul [HORIZON] (LOW TIER)** DePaul was the only B- prestige team on the tier list
B - UNLV [MWC] (LOW TIER)
B - Utah [MWC] (LOW TIER)
B - Gonzaga [WCC] (LOW TIER)

Posted by cbriese on 5/29/2021 12:50:00 PM (view original):
I don't think you guys get it. WIS is not soliciting your opinions. This is all part of the WIS HD business plan. This change goes hand in hand with the change to make it easier to move up to D1. Instead of having a limited number of users continue to coach the most desired schools, make it easier for new users to move up to those schools, but maintain only a tenuous grip on them so other users can continue the cycle.

The current business plan is obviously not bringing in enough revenue, and the thinking is that more new users can be attracted (and kept) if they have an easier path to a school they know. WIS is betting that revenue losses incurred from current customers (and their HD addiction) dropping teams will be exceeded by revenue from new customers with an easier path to a good D1 team.

Look for rewards to also be reduced in the future, encouraging highly successful coaches who continually meet expectations to either give up their teams or pay for the privilege of continuing to coach them.

Oh no, we get it. We're just pointing out that they clearly didn't do their homework or have a serious miscalculation. Adam expected these requirements to be EASY. As it stands, this would be a disaster.

You know things are seriously FUBAR when Poopshoe and I agree.

Posted by ppk700 on 5/29/2021 5:07:00 PM (view original):
Baseline prestige/school name/firing tier

ACC:

A+ - Duke (HIGH TIER)
A+ - North Carolina (HIGH TIER)
A - Maryland (HIGH TIER)
A- - North Carolina St. (MID TIER)
A- - Georgia Tech (MID TIER)
A- - Boston College (MID TIER)
A- - Wake Forest (MID TIER)
B+ - Virginia (MID TIER)
B - Clemson (LOW TIER)
B - Florida St. (LOW TIER)
B - Miami FL (LOW TIER)
B - Virginia Tech (LOW TIER)

Big 12:

A+ - Kansas (HIGH TIER)
A- - Oklahoma (MID TIER)
B - Iowa St. (LOW TIER)
B - Oklahoma St. (LOW TIER)
B - Texas A&M (LOW TIER)
B - Missouri (LOW TIER)
B - Texas Tech (LOW TIER)
B - Texas (LOW TIER)
B- - Kansas St. (NO TIER)
B- - Colorado (NO TIER)
B- - Nebraska (NO TIER)
B- - Baylor (NO TIER)

Big East:

A+ - Connecticut (HIGH TIER)
A+ - Syracuse (HIGH TIER)
A- - Georgetown (MID TIER)
A- - Louisville (NO TIER)** The Cardinals are surely in the Mid Tier
A- - Cincinnati (MID TIER)
B+ - Villanova (MID TIER)
B+ - Pittsburgh (MID TIER)
B - West Virginia (LOW TIER)
B - Providence (LOW TIER)
B - Seton Hall (LOW TIER)
B - St. John’s (LOW TIER)
B- - Rutgers (NO TIER)

Big Ten:

A+ - Illinois (HIGH TIER)
A+ - Michigan St. (HIGH TIER)
A- - Indiana (MID TIER)
A- - Wisconsin (MID TIER)
B+ - Purdue (MID TIER)
B+ - Ohio St. (MID TIER)
B - Iowa (LOW TIER)
B - Notre Dame (LOW TIER)
B - Michigan (LOW TIER)
B - Minnesota (LOW TIER)
B- - Penn St. (NO TIER)
B- - Northwestern (NO TIER)

Pac-10:

A+ - Arizona (HIGH TIER)
A+ - UCLA (HIGH TIER)
A- - Stanford (MID TIER)
B - Arizona St. (LOW TIER)
B - California (LOW TIER)
B - Oregon (LOW TIER)
B - Oregon St. (LOW TIER)
B - USC (LOW TIER)
B - Washington (LOW TIER)
B - Washington St. (LOW TIER)
B- - Hawaii (NO TIER)
B- - Fresno St. (NO TIER)

SEC:

A+ - Kentucky (HIGH TIER)
A- - Florida (MID TIER)
B+ - Arkansas (MID TIER)
B+ - Tennessee (MID TIER)
B - Auburn (LOW TIER)
B - Alabama (LOW TIER)
B - Mississippi (LOW TIER)
B - Mississippi State (LOW TIER)
B - South Carolina (LOW TIER)
B - Vanderbilt (LOW TIER)
B - Georgia (LOW TIER)
B - LSU (LOW TIER)

Also:

B - Dayton [A10] (LOW TIER)
B - Temple [A10] (LOW TIER)
B - St. Joseph’s [A10] (LOW TIER)
B - Xavier [A10] (LOW TIER)
B - Memphis [CUSA] (LOW TIER)
B - Marquette [HORIZON] (LOW TIER)
B- - DePaul [HORIZON] (LOW TIER)** DePaul was the only B- prestige team on the tier list
B - UNLV [MWC] (LOW TIER)
B - Utah [MWC] (LOW TIER)
B - Gonzaga [WCC] (LOW TIER)

So are we assuming teams not listed are currently jobs where you can't get fired (No Tier)?

I assumed he just forgot to list them.

In general I'm mostly fine with the tiers. It makes B jobs wayyy less desirable than B- jobs (disregarding location).

Some people have given real life examples, here's an hd example. My ucla tark team, 17 final fours 12 championship games and 6 championships in 47 or 48 seasons. Made the elite 8 in year 5. Would have been fired after year 4 under this proposal, and I'm pretty sure my resume shows I can coach. If administrations plan is constant firings and rotation through jobs this plan is fine. If their plan is to show what coaches can coach this doesn't show it because a vast majority will be fired. Also, established team like my ucla team *should* become more dominant under this proposal with half the top jobs either sim or in constant flux, which I don't think is good for the game.

Posted by iamjoeyd on 5/29/2021 7:55:00 AM (view original):

Posted by emy1013 on 5/29/2021 3:02:00 AM (view original):
I know that Duke wasn't really "DUKE" yet but given these standards Coach K would have been fired after his fourth season there. Even having it be a five year timeframe would have resulted in him being fired.

I'm all for firings but I think the standards need to be loosened up just a bit.

Duke fans never wanted Coach K to get a Season 4. After back to back losing seasons in years 2 and 3, the Iron Dukes were demanding he be fired.

As a Wake Forest alumnus, I have quite a bit of experience on this high major coaching carosel over the last decade... This is our basic mentality.

Year 1 is free.
Year 2 is a better record than year 1
Year 3 is a .500 season
Year 4 is a postseason appearance
Year 5 is a trip to the big dance

That gets you a 5 yr extension.

In the second 5 yr contract you're expected to make the postseason every season. You're expected to make the NT at least 3 of the 5 seasons and you should advance past the 1st rd at least once. As long as you fulfill those expectations, you're good forever.

A losing season gets you in hot water. Back to back losing seasons YOU'RE FIRED! Miss the postseason 3 years in a row FIRED.

The expectations at NC State are a bit higher and at UNC and Duke much higher.

The game should also recruit coaches for the high level vacancies. Fired coaches should also be compensated (a high major coach has a serious buyout clause). Perhaps 3 seasons?

Grew up in the Raleigh area in the 80's. Was accepted at both NC State and at Chapel Hill (among others). Been a Duke fan since some kid named Jordan was still a wet behind the ears college player. Not trying to be an *** here but I'm somewhat familiar with the dynamics of coaching in the ACC.

Posted by piman314 on 5/29/2021 10:01:00 PM (view original):
Some people have given real life examples, here's an hd example. My ucla tark team, 17 final fours 12 championship games and 6 championships in 47 or 48 seasons. Made the elite 8 in year 5. Would have been fired after year 4 under this proposal, and I'm pretty sure my resume shows I can coach. If administrations plan is constant firings and rotation through jobs this plan is fine. If their plan is to show what coaches can coach this doesn't show it because a vast majority will be fired. Also, established team like my ucla team *should* become more dominant under this proposal with half the top jobs either sim or in constant flux, which I don't think is good for the game.

this is a pretty excellent point. with any firing scheme, we have to expect there's gonna be a set of folks who are basically immune to those conditions and plug along undeterred. going in, i assumed that would be a pretty large set - at least all the regular NT teams and such, which is probably a good three dozen programs or so. having some extra churn in the other schools isn't really much of a factor with a healthy set of stable programs. but if you cut that down to perhaps as few as 10 established programs per world who are there 15-20 seasons, that is a real advantage for those folks.

kinda doubt adam and folks were trying to make the rich richer with this one?

outside of the obvious relevance of the most successful coach in 3.0 getting fired at one of the best programs in 3.0, had the criteria been in place...

Posted by pallas on 5/29/2021 5:18:00 PM (view original):

Posted by ppk700 on 5/29/2021 5:07:00 PM (view original):
Baseline prestige/school name/firing tier

ACC:

A+ - Duke (HIGH TIER)
A+ - North Carolina (HIGH TIER)
A - Maryland (HIGH TIER)
A- - North Carolina St. (MID TIER)
A- - Georgia Tech (MID TIER)
A- - Boston College (MID TIER)
A- - Wake Forest (MID TIER)
B+ - Virginia (MID TIER)
B - Clemson (LOW TIER)
B - Florida St. (LOW TIER)
B - Miami FL (LOW TIER)
B - Virginia Tech (LOW TIER)

Big 12:

A+ - Kansas (HIGH TIER)
A- - Oklahoma (MID TIER)
B - Iowa St. (LOW TIER)
B - Oklahoma St. (LOW TIER)
B - Texas A&M (LOW TIER)
B - Missouri (LOW TIER)
B - Texas Tech (LOW TIER)
B - Texas (LOW TIER)
B- - Kansas St. (NO TIER)
B- - Colorado (NO TIER)
B- - Nebraska (NO TIER)
B- - Baylor (NO TIER)

Big East:

A+ - Connecticut (HIGH TIER)
A+ - Syracuse (HIGH TIER)
A- - Georgetown (MID TIER)
A- - Louisville (NO TIER)** The Cardinals are surely in the Mid Tier
A- - Cincinnati (MID TIER)
B+ - Villanova (MID TIER)
B+ - Pittsburgh (MID TIER)
B - West Virginia (LOW TIER)
B - Providence (LOW TIER)
B - Seton Hall (LOW TIER)
B - St. John’s (LOW TIER)
B- - Rutgers (NO TIER)

Big Ten:

A+ - Illinois (HIGH TIER)
A+ - Michigan St. (HIGH TIER)
A- - Indiana (MID TIER)
A- - Wisconsin (MID TIER)
B+ - Purdue (MID TIER)
B+ - Ohio St. (MID TIER)
B - Iowa (LOW TIER)
B - Notre Dame (LOW TIER)
B - Michigan (LOW TIER)
B - Minnesota (LOW TIER)
B- - Penn St. (NO TIER)
B- - Northwestern (NO TIER)

Pac-10:

A+ - Arizona (HIGH TIER)
A+ - UCLA (HIGH TIER)
A- - Stanford (MID TIER)
B - Arizona St. (LOW TIER)
B - California (LOW TIER)
B - Oregon (LOW TIER)
B - Oregon St. (LOW TIER)
B - USC (LOW TIER)
B - Washington (LOW TIER)
B - Washington St. (LOW TIER)
B- - Hawaii (NO TIER)
B- - Fresno St. (NO TIER)

SEC:

A+ - Kentucky (HIGH TIER)
A- - Florida (MID TIER)
B+ - Arkansas (MID TIER)
B+ - Tennessee (MID TIER)
B - Auburn (LOW TIER)
B - Alabama (LOW TIER)
B - Mississippi (LOW TIER)
B - Mississippi State (LOW TIER)
B - South Carolina (LOW TIER)
B - Vanderbilt (LOW TIER)
B - Georgia (LOW TIER)
B - LSU (LOW TIER)

Also:

B - Dayton [A10] (LOW TIER)
B - Temple [A10] (LOW TIER)
B - St. Joseph’s [A10] (LOW TIER)
B - Xavier [A10] (LOW TIER)
B - Memphis [CUSA] (LOW TIER)
B - Marquette [HORIZON] (LOW TIER)
B- - DePaul [HORIZON] (LOW TIER)** DePaul was the only B- prestige team on the tier list
B - UNLV [MWC] (LOW TIER)
B - Utah [MWC] (LOW TIER)
B - Gonzaga [WCC] (LOW TIER)

So are we assuming teams not listed are currently jobs where you can't get fired (No Tier)?

I assumed he just forgot to list them.

Your assumption is correct, no tier = not on Adam's list.

I find it really odd that DePaul was listed as a school in the Low Tier. DePaul is the only B- prestige school on Adam's list, and any coach there will have to make the NT once every 4 seasons. Why DePaul, but no other B- prestige schools? Below is a list of the B- prestige schools:

Baylor [Big 12]
Kansas St. [Big 12]
Nebraska [Big 12]
Colorado [Big 12]
Rutgers [Big East]
Penn St. [Big Ten]
Northwestern [Big Ten]
Hawaii [Pac-10]
Fresno St. [Pac-10]
Massachusetts [A-10]
Rhode Island [A-10]
St. Louis [A-10]
Richmond [A-10]
Charlotte [A-10]
George Washington [A-10]
St. Bonaventure [A-10]
La Salle [A-10]
DePaul [Horizon]
New Mexico [MWC]

All of these schools seem like reasonable candidates to be added to the Low Tier list - I fear that they will be.

In my opinion, I feel like it's obvious they just missed over a grouping of schools accidentally. And would update their list. Except maybe they're just considering a massive upgrade to their original plan, and will correct it all at once.

I'm sure it was an accident, and not intent to leave off the B- schools. And maybe the only reason DePaul WAS mentioned, is because it's a B- team kind of on an island since it's not in a Big 6 conference. So DePaul was directly thought about, and added. If they notice they left off the B- big 6 schools all together, they will surely add them to the list

NC State expectations need to be updated to Make the PIT once every 10 seasons.

Posted by pallas on 5/29/2021 4:25:00 PM (view original):
I feel like this is WIS essentially saying, "You asked for firings, we'll give you firings."

But firings for the sake of firings--change for the sake of change--is not how this should be implemented. As people have said, this "all or nothing" approach will almost certainly drive away loyal customers at a much faster rate than it will bring in new customers.

Also: I'm concerned that Adam hasn't popped back into the thread. I'm not in the discord much, so I don't know if he's discussing these things there. But this is a situation that should be fluid, not "This is how it is now, good luck." Not with as many glaring and obvious issues as the original model has.

^^ well said.

at the very least a grace period needs to be enacted

I love Adam and what he's doing for the game, but the one thing that he doesn't have is any experience whatsoever trying to rebuild a big 6 school. It's waaaay harder than rebuilding Weber State or something.

Posted by ppk700 on 5/30/2021 11:35:00 AM (view original):

Posted by pallas on 5/29/2021 5:18:00 PM (view original):

Posted by ppk700 on 5/29/2021 5:07:00 PM (view original):
Baseline prestige/school name/firing tier

ACC:

A+ - Duke (HIGH TIER)
A+ - North Carolina (HIGH TIER)
A - Maryland (HIGH TIER)
A- - North Carolina St. (MID TIER)
A- - Georgia Tech (MID TIER)
A- - Boston College (MID TIER)
A- - Wake Forest (MID TIER)
B+ - Virginia (MID TIER)
B - Clemson (LOW TIER)
B - Florida St. (LOW TIER)
B - Miami FL (LOW TIER)
B - Virginia Tech (LOW TIER)

Big 12:

A+ - Kansas (HIGH TIER)
A- - Oklahoma (MID TIER)
B - Iowa St. (LOW TIER)
B - Oklahoma St. (LOW TIER)
B - Texas A&M (LOW TIER)
B - Missouri (LOW TIER)
B - Texas Tech (LOW TIER)
B - Texas (LOW TIER)
B- - Kansas St. (NO TIER)
B- - Colorado (NO TIER)
B- - Nebraska (NO TIER)
B- - Baylor (NO TIER)

Big East:

A+ - Connecticut (HIGH TIER)
A+ - Syracuse (HIGH TIER)
A- - Georgetown (MID TIER)
A- - Louisville (NO TIER)** The Cardinals are surely in the Mid Tier
A- - Cincinnati (MID TIER)
B+ - Villanova (MID TIER)
B+ - Pittsburgh (MID TIER)
B - West Virginia (LOW TIER)
B - Providence (LOW TIER)
B - Seton Hall (LOW TIER)
B - St. John’s (LOW TIER)
B- - Rutgers (NO TIER)

Big Ten:

A+ - Illinois (HIGH TIER)
A+ - Michigan St. (HIGH TIER)
A- - Indiana (MID TIER)
A- - Wisconsin (MID TIER)
B+ - Purdue (MID TIER)
B+ - Ohio St. (MID TIER)
B - Iowa (LOW TIER)
B - Notre Dame (LOW TIER)
B - Michigan (LOW TIER)
B - Minnesota (LOW TIER)
B- - Penn St. (NO TIER)
B- - Northwestern (NO TIER)

Pac-10:

A+ - Arizona (HIGH TIER)
A+ - UCLA (HIGH TIER)
A- - Stanford (MID TIER)
B - Arizona St. (LOW TIER)
B - California (LOW TIER)
B - Oregon (LOW TIER)
B - Oregon St. (LOW TIER)
B - USC (LOW TIER)
B - Washington (LOW TIER)
B - Washington St. (LOW TIER)
B- - Hawaii (NO TIER)
B- - Fresno St. (NO TIER)

SEC:

A+ - Kentucky (HIGH TIER)
A- - Florida (MID TIER)
B+ - Arkansas (MID TIER)
B+ - Tennessee (MID TIER)
B - Auburn (LOW TIER)
B - Alabama (LOW TIER)
B - Mississippi (LOW TIER)
B - Mississippi State (LOW TIER)
B - South Carolina (LOW TIER)
B - Vanderbilt (LOW TIER)
B - Georgia (LOW TIER)
B - LSU (LOW TIER)

Also:

B - Dayton [A10] (LOW TIER)
B - Temple [A10] (LOW TIER)
B - St. Joseph’s [A10] (LOW TIER)
B - Xavier [A10] (LOW TIER)
B - Memphis [CUSA] (LOW TIER)
B - Marquette [HORIZON] (LOW TIER)
B- - DePaul [HORIZON] (LOW TIER)** DePaul was the only B- prestige team on the tier list
B - UNLV [MWC] (LOW TIER)
B - Utah [MWC] (LOW TIER)
B - Gonzaga [WCC] (LOW TIER)

So are we assuming teams not listed are currently jobs where you can't get fired (No Tier)?

I assumed he just forgot to list them.

Your assumption is correct, no tier = not on Adam's list.

I find it really odd that DePaul was listed as a school in the Low Tier. DePaul is the only B- prestige school on Adam's list, and any coach there will have to make the NT once every 4 seasons. Why DePaul, but no other B- prestige schools? Below is a list of the B- prestige schools:

Baylor [Big 12]
Kansas St. [Big 12]
Nebraska [Big 12]
Colorado [Big 12]
Rutgers [Big East]
Penn St. [Big Ten]
Northwestern [Big Ten]
Hawaii [Pac-10]
Fresno St. [Pac-10]
Massachusetts [A-10]
Rhode Island [A-10]
St. Louis [A-10]
Richmond [A-10]
Charlotte [A-10]
George Washington [A-10]
St. Bonaventure [A-10]
La Salle [A-10]
DePaul [Horizon]
New Mexico [MWC]

All of these schools seem like reasonable candidates to be added to the Low Tier list - I fear that they will be.

That list of prestiges isn't exactly accurate though. Georgetown is listed as an A- but is actually closer to B/B+. Not all A- schools are equal. Some might be closer to B+ while others are closer to A. Its a scale, and I'm sure that Adam knows the exact prestige rating of each school. For example if the scale looks like this:
A+ 100-95
A 94-85
A- 84-75
B+ 74-65
etc...

Maybe he used the cutoffs for each tier as:
Tier 1 100-95
Tier 2 94-75
Tier 3 74-60

And Depaul just makes the cutoff as a 60 despite being known as a B- prestige on a list that isn't exactly accurate and doesn't take the scale values into account.

mlitney, that's an interesting tidbit of info. I did a quick search of prestige listings on the forums and found a basic list someone compiled back in the day, this was my source for my above post. If what you say is accurate, that makes complete sense about DePaul.