doogan - i lost a ton of recruits to St. John's until i stopped competing against him. same issue in another world against a different user. just couldn't compete. it screwed up my teams. these are recruiting violations (what the coaches did) because it was outside the rules of the game. and especially the spirit of the game. if we want HD to be the wild west, fine. but i'll be out of here in 2 seconds if that's the case and i bet 33% of the other users will too. and at that point, it's possible HD goes away. it's losing players, not gaining them. many people are tired of the other recruiting issues already. if we want to keep playing this thing we need to clean it up.

Posted by gigrant on 11/1/2022 10:47:00 AM (view original):
doogan - i lost a ton of recruits to St. John's until i stopped competing against him. same issue in another world against a different user. just couldn't compete. it screwed up my teams. these are recruiting violations (what the coaches did) because it was outside the rules of the game. and especially the spirit of the game. if we want HD to be the wild west, fine. but i'll be out of here in 2 seconds if that's the case and i bet 33% of the other users will too. and at that point, it's possible HD goes away. it's losing players, not gaining them. many people are tired of the other recruiting issues already. if we want to keep playing this thing we need to clean it up.

+1

The guy won multiple NCs, he obviously knew that gaining a huge advantage in recruiting was cheating. We don't feel bad for him or anyone who exploited it, I feel bad for anyone who lost games or recruits because of a cheater. They can go find another site to try again morally, we can't trust them here.

In HD & GD both, I will never understand the people who think a loophole is closer to an Easter egg than cheating. Happens every time this comes up.

Posted by doogan on 11/1/2022 10:38:00 AM (view original):

Posted by favre3xmvp on 11/1/2022 10:31:00 AM (view original):

Posted by doogan on 11/1/2022 10:27:00 AM (view original):

Posted by gigrant on 11/1/2022 10:21:00 AM (view original):

Posted by doogan on 11/1/2022 9:08:00 AM (view original):
I've talked to one of the guys who was banned. In my opinion, what he did is not cheating. I can see why it would be seen as something that shouldn't be possible or a loophole, but could also make the argument that it was designed to be part of the game. In fact, he asked CS about it a few years ago and they confirmed it would provide recruiting effort and did not say it was something he should not do or at all imply that it was something that went against Fair Play guidelines. I saw shoe mention the redshirting a senior thing. That's a loophole. What these guys did is a similar loophole, at worst. I'd just suggest that you hold off on making pronouncements about bans or punishments when you have very little knowledge of what happened.

respectfully, i don't agree at all. i've been here a long time, and i'm really tired of people acting outside the spirit of the game. these guys had an unfair advantage, so they were basically stealing money from the rest of us. with all of the frustration already at hand with the recruiting process, this issue was about to start an exodus of coaches who were already on the fence. you see the above post about the FL coach leaving. i know several other long-time vets who are packing their things as we speak. and many already have. HD has been in a bad spot for at least 2 years now and the timing of this scandal couldn't be worse. perhaps that is why CS got aggressive for once.

i hope the cheaters are forced to start new accts so that they can't get to D1 and compete before there's a fix.

Do you know what it was that these users did?

This should not matter. What we know is the impact it had on the game and it was a negative one for those recruiting against them, unfairly so.

It shouldn't matter what they did? We'll have to disagree on that one. How do you know it was unfair when you don't know what happened?

Tough spot to tell people to reserve judgement and hold their thoughts while you have more information. Why so cryptic? It would not be very smart to attempt to "cheat" while CS is actively looking into the problem.

Posted by favre3xmvp on 11/1/2022 10:46:00 AM (view original):

Posted by doogan on 11/1/2022 10:38:00 AM (view original):

Posted by favre3xmvp on 11/1/2022 10:31:00 AM (view original):

Posted by doogan on 11/1/2022 10:27:00 AM (view original):

Posted by gigrant on 11/1/2022 10:21:00 AM (view original):

Posted by doogan on 11/1/2022 9:08:00 AM (view original):
I've talked to one of the guys who was banned. In my opinion, what he did is not cheating. I can see why it would be seen as something that shouldn't be possible or a loophole, but could also make the argument that it was designed to be part of the game. In fact, he asked CS about it a few years ago and they confirmed it would provide recruiting effort and did not say it was something he should not do or at all imply that it was something that went against Fair Play guidelines. I saw shoe mention the redshirting a senior thing. That's a loophole. What these guys did is a similar loophole, at worst. I'd just suggest that you hold off on making pronouncements about bans or punishments when you have very little knowledge of what happened.

respectfully, i don't agree at all. i've been here a long time, and i'm really tired of people acting outside the spirit of the game. these guys had an unfair advantage, so they were basically stealing money from the rest of us. with all of the frustration already at hand with the recruiting process, this issue was about to start an exodus of coaches who were already on the fence. you see the above post about the FL coach leaving. i know several other long-time vets who are packing their things as we speak. and many already have. HD has been in a bad spot for at least 2 years now and the timing of this scandal couldn't be worse. perhaps that is why CS got aggressive for once.

i hope the cheaters are forced to start new accts so that they can't get to D1 and compete before there's a fix.

Do you know what it was that these users did?

This should not matter. What we know is the impact it had on the game and it was a negative one for those recruiting against them, unfairly so.

It shouldn't matter what they did? We'll have to disagree on that one. How do you know it was unfair when you don't know what happened?

It provided an advantage that was not part of the game and those using it knew it. We need not know more. And that is why I discount the mechanics being revealed too. We know the result. These coaches were able to unlock additional recruiting options faster by using this exploit.

By the way, the senior redshirt results in 20 APs per cycle. This is no where near only 20 if someone can make 2 dozen scholarship offers by day 2 of recruiting. We are comparing apples and orangutans. (And yes, for those challenged in the realm of humor, I intentionally did not say, “oranges”.)

This 1000%

Being able to unlock 24 scholarships in the same time it takes someone else to unlock 5 is a HUGE advantage. Not just from the fact you have unlocked it, but just from the perception.

We're all trying to battle for recruits and all have the same understanding of allocated resources. Swenske was giving me (the competitor) the impression that he was spreading his limited resources across dozens of recruits. I would take that as a sign of weakness that he couldn't allocate his resources heavily on a few players - but that was obviously not the case.

Comparing this to the senior RS thing is not applicable IMO.

Posted by favre3xmvp on 11/1/2022 10:46:00 AM (view original):

Posted by doogan on 11/1/2022 10:38:00 AM (view original):

Posted by favre3xmvp on 11/1/2022 10:31:00 AM (view original):

Posted by doogan on 11/1/2022 10:27:00 AM (view original):

Posted by gigrant on 11/1/2022 10:21:00 AM (view original):

Posted by doogan on 11/1/2022 9:08:00 AM (view original):
I've talked to one of the guys who was banned. In my opinion, what he did is not cheating. I can see why it would be seen as something that shouldn't be possible or a loophole, but could also make the argument that it was designed to be part of the game. In fact, he asked CS about it a few years ago and they confirmed it would provide recruiting effort and did not say it was something he should not do or at all imply that it was something that went against Fair Play guidelines. I saw shoe mention the redshirting a senior thing. That's a loophole. What these guys did is a similar loophole, at worst. I'd just suggest that you hold off on making pronouncements about bans or punishments when you have very little knowledge of what happened.

respectfully, i don't agree at all. i've been here a long time, and i'm really tired of people acting outside the spirit of the game. these guys had an unfair advantage, so they were basically stealing money from the rest of us. with all of the frustration already at hand with the recruiting process, this issue was about to start an exodus of coaches who were already on the fence. you see the above post about the FL coach leaving. i know several other long-time vets who are packing their things as we speak. and many already have. HD has been in a bad spot for at least 2 years now and the timing of this scandal couldn't be worse. perhaps that is why CS got aggressive for once.

i hope the cheaters are forced to start new accts so that they can't get to D1 and compete before there's a fix.

Do you know what it was that these users did?

This should not matter. What we know is the impact it had on the game and it was a negative one for those recruiting against them, unfairly so.

It shouldn't matter what they did? We'll have to disagree on that one. How do you know it was unfair when you don't know what happened?

It provided an advantage that was not part of the game and those using it knew it. We need not know more. And that is why I discount the mechanics being revealed too. We know the result. These coaches were able to unlock additional recruiting options faster by using this exploit.

By the way, the senior redshirt results in 20 APs per cycle. This is no where near only 20 if someone can make 2 dozen scholarship offers by day 2 of recruiting. We are comparing apples and orangutans. (And yes, for those challenged in the realm of humor, I intentionally did not say, “oranges”.)

CS implied that it was part of the game, as I've said.

Posted by senetor24 on 11/1/2022 10:56:00 AM (view original):

Posted by doogan on 11/1/2022 10:38:00 AM (view original):

Posted by favre3xmvp on 11/1/2022 10:31:00 AM (view original):

Posted by doogan on 11/1/2022 10:27:00 AM (view original):

Posted by gigrant on 11/1/2022 10:21:00 AM (view original):

Posted by doogan on 11/1/2022 9:08:00 AM (view original):
I've talked to one of the guys who was banned. In my opinion, what he did is not cheating. I can see why it would be seen as something that shouldn't be possible or a loophole, but could also make the argument that it was designed to be part of the game. In fact, he asked CS about it a few years ago and they confirmed it would provide recruiting effort and did not say it was something he should not do or at all imply that it was something that went against Fair Play guidelines. I saw shoe mention the redshirting a senior thing. That's a loophole. What these guys did is a similar loophole, at worst. I'd just suggest that you hold off on making pronouncements about bans or punishments when you have very little knowledge of what happened.

respectfully, i don't agree at all. i've been here a long time, and i'm really tired of people acting outside the spirit of the game. these guys had an unfair advantage, so they were basically stealing money from the rest of us. with all of the frustration already at hand with the recruiting process, this issue was about to start an exodus of coaches who were already on the fence. you see the above post about the FL coach leaving. i know several other long-time vets who are packing their things as we speak. and many already have. HD has been in a bad spot for at least 2 years now and the timing of this scandal couldn't be worse. perhaps that is why CS got aggressive for once.

i hope the cheaters are forced to start new accts so that they can't get to D1 and compete before there's a fix.

Do you know what it was that these users did?

This should not matter. What we know is the impact it had on the game and it was a negative one for those recruiting against them, unfairly so.

It shouldn't matter what they did? We'll have to disagree on that one. How do you know it was unfair when you don't know what happened?

Tough spot to tell people to reserve judgement and hold their thoughts while you have more information. Why so cryptic? It would not be very smart to attempt to "cheat" while CS is actively looking into the problem.

Like others have said, it wouldn't be right for me to put it out there right now while they're still presumably working on fixing it. Doesn't seem to right to me to do that. They've said they'll put out an update once they fix it, right? So that update will probably explain but if it doesn't I'll explain at that time. Sorry, not trying to be cryptic for any personal advantage...other than maybe not angering the devs and getting myself banned for blabbing too much on the forum?

Posted by Benis on 11/1/2022 11:00:00 AM (view original):

Posted by favre3xmvp on 11/1/2022 10:46:00 AM (view original):

Posted by doogan on 11/1/2022 10:38:00 AM (view original):

Posted by favre3xmvp on 11/1/2022 10:31:00 AM (view original):

Posted by doogan on 11/1/2022 10:27:00 AM (view original):

Posted by gigrant on 11/1/2022 10:21:00 AM (view original):

Posted by doogan on 11/1/2022 9:08:00 AM (view original):
I've talked to one of the guys who was banned. In my opinion, what he did is not cheating. I can see why it would be seen as something that shouldn't be possible or a loophole, but could also make the argument that it was designed to be part of the game. In fact, he asked CS about it a few years ago and they confirmed it would provide recruiting effort and did not say it was something he should not do or at all imply that it was something that went against Fair Play guidelines. I saw shoe mention the redshirting a senior thing. That's a loophole. What these guys did is a similar loophole, at worst. I'd just suggest that you hold off on making pronouncements about bans or punishments when you have very little knowledge of what happened.

respectfully, i don't agree at all. i've been here a long time, and i'm really tired of people acting outside the spirit of the game. these guys had an unfair advantage, so they were basically stealing money from the rest of us. with all of the frustration already at hand with the recruiting process, this issue was about to start an exodus of coaches who were already on the fence. you see the above post about the FL coach leaving. i know several other long-time vets who are packing their things as we speak. and many already have. HD has been in a bad spot for at least 2 years now and the timing of this scandal couldn't be worse. perhaps that is why CS got aggressive for once.

i hope the cheaters are forced to start new accts so that they can't get to D1 and compete before there's a fix.

Do you know what it was that these users did?

This should not matter. What we know is the impact it had on the game and it was a negative one for those recruiting against them, unfairly so.

It shouldn't matter what they did? We'll have to disagree on that one. How do you know it was unfair when you don't know what happened?

It provided an advantage that was not part of the game and those using it knew it. We need not know more. And that is why I discount the mechanics being revealed too. We know the result. These coaches were able to unlock additional recruiting options faster by using this exploit.

By the way, the senior redshirt results in 20 APs per cycle. This is no where near only 20 if someone can make 2 dozen scholarship offers by day 2 of recruiting. We are comparing apples and orangutans. (And yes, for those challenged in the realm of humor, I intentionally did not say, “oranges”.)

This 1000%

Being able to unlock 24 scholarships in the same time it takes someone else to unlock 5 is a HUGE advantage. Not just from the fact you have unlocked it, but just from the perception.

We're all trying to battle for recruits and all have the same understanding of allocated resources. Swenske was giving me (the competitor) the impression that he was spreading his limited resources across dozens of recruits. I would take that as a sign of weakness that he couldn't allocate his resources heavily on a few players - but that was obviously not the case.

Comparing this to the senior RS thing is not applicable IMO.

Obviously I don't know what every banned user was doing but from what I've seen you're way overstating the value in terms of being able to unlock 24 scholarships vs. 5. I don't know all the data you're basing that on but it's not that kind of advantage. And again, why not just hold off judgement until you know what was done and what the advantage was?

Doogan, just share what it was. At this point if someone reads the forums, they're not gonna just go out and do it now and risk getting banned are they?

Posted by Benis on 11/1/2022 11:05:00 AM (view original):
Doogan, just share what it was. At this point if someone reads the forums, they're not gonna just go out and do it now and risk getting banned are they?

I'd like to. I really would. I don't want to be this cryptic guy right now. Just doesn't seem like the right thing to do based on what I've already said.

I appreciate you speaking up Doogan. But the fact that you don't think unlocking scholarships on 24 players on the first day of recruiting is a big advantage is baffling to me. Half of swenske's targets are late signers. Hes basically getting his backup targets secured for free. His A- D1 prestige is going to scare off quite a few people from pursuing because they think he's actually gonna go for them.

HOWEVER he managed to do this is mostly irrelevant. He gave himself a major advantage that 99% of other users weren't privy to.

If CS truly said it was ok, that brings in a new wrinkle. But also, why keep it a secret?

Posted by doogan on 11/1/2022 10:58:00 AM (view original):

Posted by favre3xmvp on 11/1/2022 10:46:00 AM (view original):

Posted by doogan on 11/1/2022 10:38:00 AM (view original):

Posted by favre3xmvp on 11/1/2022 10:31:00 AM (view original):

Posted by doogan on 11/1/2022 10:27:00 AM (view original):

Posted by gigrant on 11/1/2022 10:21:00 AM (view original):

Posted by doogan on 11/1/2022 9:08:00 AM (view original):
I've talked to one of the guys who was banned. In my opinion, what he did is not cheating. I can see why it would be seen as something that shouldn't be possible or a loophole, but could also make the argument that it was designed to be part of the game. In fact, he asked CS about it a few years ago and they confirmed it would provide recruiting effort and did not say it was something he should not do or at all imply that it was something that went against Fair Play guidelines. I saw shoe mention the redshirting a senior thing. That's a loophole. What these guys did is a similar loophole, at worst. I'd just suggest that you hold off on making pronouncements about bans or punishments when you have very little knowledge of what happened.

respectfully, i don't agree at all. i've been here a long time, and i'm really tired of people acting outside the spirit of the game. these guys had an unfair advantage, so they were basically stealing money from the rest of us. with all of the frustration already at hand with the recruiting process, this issue was about to start an exodus of coaches who were already on the fence. you see the above post about the FL coach leaving. i know several other long-time vets who are packing their things as we speak. and many already have. HD has been in a bad spot for at least 2 years now and the timing of this scandal couldn't be worse. perhaps that is why CS got aggressive for once.

i hope the cheaters are forced to start new accts so that they can't get to D1 and compete before there's a fix.

Do you know what it was that these users did?

This should not matter. What we know is the impact it had on the game and it was a negative one for those recruiting against them, unfairly so.

It shouldn't matter what they did? We'll have to disagree on that one. How do you know it was unfair when you don't know what happened?

It provided an advantage that was not part of the game and those using it knew it. We need not know more. And that is why I discount the mechanics being revealed too. We know the result. These coaches were able to unlock additional recruiting options faster by using this exploit.

By the way, the senior redshirt results in 20 APs per cycle. This is no where near only 20 if someone can make 2 dozen scholarship offers by day 2 of recruiting. We are comparing apples and orangutans. (And yes, for those challenged in the realm of humor, I intentionally did not say, “oranges”.)

CS implied that it was part of the game, as I've said.

Doogan, you say, “CS implied it was part of the game.” Let me offer a counter perspective.

Over the 20 years of this game, we have had good, bad, and terrible CS representatives (CSR). Just because one was indifferent with respect to this being raised as a concern does not mean it isn’t significant. I lean more in the direction that the CSR didn’t ask enough questions to flesh out whether there was an issue. Clearly, the current CSR regime does see it as an issue and they are dealing with it accordingly.

There is no reason to throw shade on those of us offering our experience recruiting against Swenske or any of the other cheaters. And yes, I will call them cheaters because they willfully used an exploit to gain an advantage that was not intended to be available. The answer for punishment is probably somewhere between ban and slap on the wrist. But a punishment is necessary to accomplish a couple things:

1. Set an example for others to not exploit non-public vulnerabilities in the future.
2. Punitive justice: it is impossible to measure and compensate those harmed in this situation. The best we can do is hold those who abused the system to some level of accountability.

Posted by favre3xmvp on 11/1/2022 11:58:00 AM (view original):

Posted by doogan on 11/1/2022 10:58:00 AM (view original):

Posted by favre3xmvp on 11/1/2022 10:46:00 AM (view original):

Posted by doogan on 11/1/2022 10:38:00 AM (view original):

Posted by favre3xmvp on 11/1/2022 10:31:00 AM (view original):

Posted by doogan on 11/1/2022 10:27:00 AM (view original):

Posted by gigrant on 11/1/2022 10:21:00 AM (view original):

Posted by doogan on 11/1/2022 9:08:00 AM (view original):
I've talked to one of the guys who was banned. In my opinion, what he did is not cheating. I can see why it would be seen as something that shouldn't be possible or a loophole, but could also make the argument that it was designed to be part of the game. In fact, he asked CS about it a few years ago and they confirmed it would provide recruiting effort and did not say it was something he should not do or at all imply that it was something that went against Fair Play guidelines. I saw shoe mention the redshirting a senior thing. That's a loophole. What these guys did is a similar loophole, at worst. I'd just suggest that you hold off on making pronouncements about bans or punishments when you have very little knowledge of what happened.

respectfully, i don't agree at all. i've been here a long time, and i'm really tired of people acting outside the spirit of the game. these guys had an unfair advantage, so they were basically stealing money from the rest of us. with all of the frustration already at hand with the recruiting process, this issue was about to start an exodus of coaches who were already on the fence. you see the above post about the FL coach leaving. i know several other long-time vets who are packing their things as we speak. and many already have. HD has been in a bad spot for at least 2 years now and the timing of this scandal couldn't be worse. perhaps that is why CS got aggressive for once.

i hope the cheaters are forced to start new accts so that they can't get to D1 and compete before there's a fix.

Do you know what it was that these users did?

This should not matter. What we know is the impact it had on the game and it was a negative one for those recruiting against them, unfairly so.

It shouldn't matter what they did? We'll have to disagree on that one. How do you know it was unfair when you don't know what happened?

It provided an advantage that was not part of the game and those using it knew it. We need not know more. And that is why I discount the mechanics being revealed too. We know the result. These coaches were able to unlock additional recruiting options faster by using this exploit.

By the way, the senior redshirt results in 20 APs per cycle. This is no where near only 20 if someone can make 2 dozen scholarship offers by day 2 of recruiting. We are comparing apples and orangutans. (And yes, for those challenged in the realm of humor, I intentionally did not say, “oranges”.)

CS implied that it was part of the game, as I've said.

Doogan, you say, “CS implied it was part of the game.” Let me offer a counter perspective.

Over the 20 years of this game, we have had good, bad, and terrible CS representatives (CSR). Just because one was indifferent with respect to this being raised as a concern does not mean it isn’t significant. I lean more in the direction that the CSR didn’t ask enough questions to flesh out whether there was an issue. Clearly, the current CSR regime does see it as an issue and they are dealing with it accordingly.

There is no reason to throw shade on those of us offering our experience recruiting against Swenske or any of the other cheaters. And yes, I will call them cheaters because they willfully used an exploit to gain an advantage that was not intended to be available. The answer for punishment is probably somewhere between ban and slap on the wrist. But a punishment is necessary to accomplish a couple things:

1. Set an example for others to not exploit non-public vulnerabilities in the future.
2. Punitive justice: it is impossible to measure and compensate those harmed in this situation. The best we can do is hold those who abused the system to some level of accountability.

I don't think I threw any shade. Pretty sure all I've said is to consider reserving judgment until you know what actually happened. No problem at all with, for example, Benis posting what happened in his recruiting against swenske and it appears to have brought something to the attention of the devs that they feel is a mistake to fix. So that's cool.

But as for the quality of the CS? Here's the scenario: player basically accidentally finds a way to get players unlocked more quickly. Player sends a ticket to CS asking, what happened here? Was this a mistake that this happened? CS says no, it's possible that what you did could have that effect. Player then continues to do that, in part because CS told them it was a part of the game. Three years later, player gets a message that they've been banned from the site for doing that exact thing. Doesn't seem fair to me.