Which on for Cy Young Topic

jvford
Posts: 1102 (0)
Hall of Famer
1 15 71
Prospect
From JFerg/Bobzillas longwinded post:

"Basically, Sheldon plus 81 average innings = Ducey."

So all we disagree on is where the 81 average innings come from and how hard they are to acquire.
2/21/2012 12:52 PM
MikeT23
Posts: 58012 (0)
Hall of Famer
87 1 47 1 189
Prospect

No, I'm basing it on who I thought was the better pitcher.   If you're going to shout "81 INNINGS, 81 INNINGS!!!!!" over and over, I'm going to address the value of those innings.   And, in order to do that, I can use the rest of the staff to show you already had 81 innings of unused above average innings on that staff.

2/21/2012 12:53 PM
jvford
Posts: 1102 (0)
Hall of Famer
1 15 71
Prospect
Posted by jvford on 2/20/2012 12:38:00 PM (view original):
And if you ignore the parks for a sec (I know, big if), the extra 81 innings came with a 1.45 WHIP and 4.55 ERA.  Not exactly tough to find 81 ML average innings.
Which goes back to this on page 1.
2/21/2012 12:53 PM
kcden
Posts: 1635 (0)
Hall of Famer
1 58 368 177
Prospect
From my experience in HBD, It is not difficult to come up with pitchers that can post a 4.55 or better ERA.  I don't know if that makes them in bobzilla's 70% of players that are below average or not, for HBD,  but I'm not going to rate those innings too severely more valuable when I won't have a difficult time filling that role.
2/21/2012 12:54 PM
MikeT23
Posts: 58012 (0)
Hall of Famer
87 1 47 1 189
Prospect
Posted by MikeT23 on 2/21/2012 12:19:00 PM (view original):
I know you listed the ratings(range) for the players.   The results are the same.   83 isn't significantly better than 79.   Or, at the very least, it didn't result in significantly more +, less - or more errors.    The defense was not the reason for Sheldon's much better results.  At home and on the road.

The only real argument is over the 81 innings.   Sheldon was a much more impressive pitcher for 205 innings.   Ducey pitched 81 more quality innings. 
And this.
2/21/2012 12:54 PM
JFerg
Posts: 86 (0)
Veteran
9 1 2 4 13
Prospect
Posted by jvford on 2/21/2012 12:53:00 PM (view original):
Posted by jvford on 2/20/2012 12:38:00 PM (view original):
And if you ignore the parks for a sec (I know, big if), the extra 81 innings came with a 1.45 WHIP and 4.55 ERA.  Not exactly tough to find 81 ML average innings.
Which goes back to this on page 1.
This is wrong.

Bobzilla
2/21/2012 12:58 PM
MikeT23
Posts: 58012 (0)
Hall of Famer
87 1 47 1 189
Prospect
FWIW, I agree there is a substantial amount of value in having a pitcher throw 286 really good innings.    But, starting from scratch, I take Sheldon's 205 innings and figure out where to get another 81.  
2/21/2012 1:00 PM
kcden
Posts: 1635 (0)
Hall of Famer
1 58 368 177
Prospect
Posted by JFerg on 2/21/2012 12:58:00 PM (view original):
Posted by jvford on 2/21/2012 12:53:00 PM (view original):
Posted by jvford on 2/20/2012 12:38:00 PM (view original):
And if you ignore the parks for a sec (I know, big if), the extra 81 innings came with a 1.45 WHIP and 4.55 ERA.  Not exactly tough to find 81 ML average innings.
Which goes back to this on page 1.
This is wrong.

Bobzilla

Explain.
Because 205 Innings at Sheldon's WHIP/ERA + 1.45 WHIP/4.55 ERA (haven't checked the WHIP, but the ERA is correct) for 81 innings = Ducey's 286 innings at his WHIP/ERA.

Having experience in HBD, I know it is not difficult to find 81 innings of 1.45WHIP/4.55 ERA

2/21/2012 1:02 PM
JFerg
Posts: 86 (0)
Veteran
9 1 2 4 13
Prospect
Posted by kcden on 2/21/2012 12:54:00 PM (view original):
From my experience in HBD, It is not difficult to come up with pitchers that can post a 4.55 or better ERA.  I don't know if that makes them in bobzilla's 70% of players that are below average or not, for HBD,  but I'm not going to rate those innings too severely more valuable when I won't have a difficult time filling that role.
I don't know how many players are below average.  The 70% refers to the replacement level.  Basically, replacement level ERA is 70% below the league average ERA.  By replacement, I'm talking about someone who can be obtained for the major league minimum.  This is all based on how things work in MLB.  If that's not how things work in this simulation, then some of what I said doesn't apply.

Bobzilla
2/21/2012 1:09 PM (edited)
kcden
Posts: 1635 (0)
Hall of Famer
1 58 368 177
Prospect
Posted by MikeT23 on 2/21/2012 1:00:00 PM (view original):
FWIW, I agree there is a substantial amount of value in having a pitcher throw 286 really good innings.    But, starting from scratch, I take Sheldon's 205 innings and figure out where to get another 81.  
Agreed.  From a ratings standpoint I would probably take Ducey, although it's close (and looking at their ratings, Sheldon definitely got unlucky for how many HR he gave up, at least as compared to Ducey).  But if you stipulate I will get Sheldon's numbers every year for so many years or Ducey's numbers, every year for so many years, I take Sheldon's numbers (from last season).
2/21/2012 1:06 PM
JFerg
Posts: 86 (0)
Veteran
9 1 2 4 13
Prospect
Posted by kcden on 2/21/2012 1:02:00 PM (view original):
Posted by JFerg on 2/21/2012 12:58:00 PM (view original):
Posted by jvford on 2/21/2012 12:53:00 PM (view original):
Posted by jvford on 2/20/2012 12:38:00 PM (view original):
And if you ignore the parks for a sec (I know, big if), the extra 81 innings came with a 1.45 WHIP and 4.55 ERA.  Not exactly tough to find 81 ML average innings.
Which goes back to this on page 1.
This is wrong.

Bobzilla

Explain.
Because 205 Innings at Sheldon's WHIP/ERA + 1.45 WHIP/4.55 ERA (haven't checked the WHIP, but the ERA is correct) for 81 innings = Ducey's 286 innings at his WHIP/ERA.

Having experience in HBD, I know it is not difficult to find 81 innings of 1.45WHIP/4.55 ERA

You said ML average innings.  I assumed you meant "Major League" as in real life.  In MLB though, it is hard to find an average pitcher.  Like I said, talent is NOT evenly distributed in MLB.  Thus, there are far more below average pitchers than exactly average pitchers, and far less above average pitchers than exactly average pitchers.  As for HBD, it's just a fantasy land which doesn't replicate how things work in real life.

Bobzilla
2/21/2012 1:08 PM
oriolemagic
Posts: 253 (0)
Hall of Famer
1 10 93 95
Prospect
I think its a bit more difficult then they are putting on to find someone to throw a 4.55 in Nashville.  And by difficult, I dont mean hard to do, I mean expensive.  Not for the ML minimum.  Probably $4-$6 million a year.
2/21/2012 1:12 PM
JFerg
Posts: 86 (0)
Veteran
9 1 2 4 13
Prospect
Posted by oriolemagic on 2/21/2012 1:12:00 PM (view original):
I think its a bit more difficult then they are putting on to find someone to throw a 4.55 in Nashville.  And by difficult, I dont mean hard to do, I mean expensive.  Not for the ML minimum.  Probably $4-$6 million a year.
In real life, MLB teams pay about $5 million per WAR.  Nothing to sneeze at.  Also, economically, the more you pay for something, the more valuable it is.

Bobzilla.
2/21/2012 1:13 PM
jvford
Posts: 1102 (0)
Hall of Famer
1 15 71
Prospect
Posted by JFerg on 2/21/2012 1:15:00 PM (view original):
Posted by oriolemagic on 2/21/2012 1:12:00 PM (view original):
I think its a bit more difficult then they are putting on to find someone to throw a 4.55 in Nashville.  And by difficult, I dont mean hard to do, I mean expensive.  Not for the ML minimum.  Probably $4-$6 million a year.
In real life, MLB teams pay about $5 million per WAR.  Nothing to sneeze at.  Also, economically, the more you pay for something, the more valuable it is.

Bobzilla.
The point you're missing is that you don't need to actually acquire someone to make up those 81 innings.  A large part of them would go to your best relievers......your other starters would pick up a bunch too.
2/21/2012 1:17 PM
oriolemagic
Posts: 253 (0)
Hall of Famer
1 10 93 95
Prospect
Its not except here we have a 180 Million payroll.  So $5 that your spending + the roster spot that your spending to get that additional value could be spent elsewhere
2/21/2012 1:17 PM
◂ Prev 1...11|12|13|14|15...24 Next ▸
Which on for Cy Young Topic
△Top△Bottom

Search Criteria

Terms of Use Customer Support Privacy Statement

© 1999-2026 WhatIfSports.com, Inc. All rights reserved. WhatIfSports is a trademark of WhatIfSports.com, Inc. SimLeague, SimMatchup and iSimNow are trademarks or registered trademarks of Electronic Arts, Inc. Used under license. The names of actual companies and products mentioned herein may be the trademarks of their respective owners.