I'm not big on "advanced metrics" for fielding.   In part, because players fluctuate from bad to good and back to bad from year to year. 

Not Jeter.

Posted by MikeT23 on 2/18/2014 9:13:00 PM (view original):

As an example, Reggie wasn't very good in RF.   The A's didn't say "Hey, Reggie will DH and play some first!!!  We'll find a better rightfielder!!!!   Hell, Jesus Alou is better in the OF than Reggie!!!!!"

I know you're not dumb enough to consider this relevant.  SS and RF aren't in the same stratosphere in terms of defensive significance.  Rangy shortstops who stay healthy get 700+ balls a season; right fielders rarely get half that.  And easy plays in RF are much easier than easy plays at SS.

I dislike Jeter as much as any non-Yankee fan, but let's not get crazy here. He belongs in the top tier of shortstops.

To me, it goes Wagner, Ripken, the non-SS shortstops (Arod, Banks, Yount), and then Jeter, Trammell, Larkin (the last three can be in any order depending on your view of defensive stats).

With the exception of the last few seasons, it's unlikely the Yankees would have been better off with someone else at short.

Posted by dahsdebater on 2/18/2014 9:41:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 2/18/2014 9:13:00 PM (view original):

As an example, Reggie wasn't very good in RF.   The A's didn't say "Hey, Reggie will DH and play some first!!!  We'll find a better rightfielder!!!!   Hell, Jesus Alou is better in the OF than Reggie!!!!!"

I know you're not dumb enough to consider this relevant.  SS and RF aren't in the same stratosphere in terms of defensive significance.  Rangy shortstops who stay healthy get 700+ balls a season; right fielders rarely get half that.  And easy plays in RF are much easier than easy plays at SS.

Not the point.   You look to improve your team.  You don't **** with your stars.   It's as simple as that and you know it.

Dumping Fosse/Green, so what?
Moving Reggie/Jeter for better defense, no.

Please tell me you understand this.   It's been a civil discussion but, if you're going to dumb up, it won't be.

Posted by bad_luck on 2/18/2014 10:00:00 PM (view original):
I dislike Jeter as much as any non-Yankee fan, but let's not get crazy here. He belongs in the top tier of shortstops.

To me, it goes Wagner, Ripken, the non-SS shortstops (Arod, Banks, Yount), and then Jeter, Trammell, Larkin (the last three can be in any order depending on your view of defensive stats).

With the exception of the last few seasons, it's unlikely the Yankees would have been better off with someone else at short.

And Vaughan, can't forget Vaughan.

Posted by MikeT23 on 2/18/2014 10:08:00 PM (view original):

Posted by dahsdebater on 2/18/2014 9:41:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 2/18/2014 9:13:00 PM (view original):

As an example, Reggie wasn't very good in RF.   The A's didn't say "Hey, Reggie will DH and play some first!!!  We'll find a better rightfielder!!!!   Hell, Jesus Alou is better in the OF than Reggie!!!!!"

I know you're not dumb enough to consider this relevant.  SS and RF aren't in the same stratosphere in terms of defensive significance.  Rangy shortstops who stay healthy get 700+ balls a season; right fielders rarely get half that.  And easy plays in RF are much easier than easy plays at SS.

Not the point.   You look to improve your team.  You don't **** with your stars.   It's as simple as that and you know it.

Dumping Fosse/Green, so what?
Moving Reggie/Jeter for better defense, no.

Please tell me you understand this.   It's been a civil discussion but, if you're going to dumb up, it won't be.

You start claiming making a change at RF vs. SS is the same because the players are both stars - which, as far as I can tell, is far less relevant to defensive value and player positioning than, umm, position - and tell me I'm the one dumbing it up?  Ripken moved off SS, he was at least as big a star as Jeter.  A-Rod moved off SS.  Ernie Banks moved.  Robin Yount moved.  In fact, if you make a list of the top SS's of all time, I can't see a legitimate top 10 in which at least about half of the guys on the list changed positions later in their careers.  That's probably because the guys we consider historically great tend to be at least as much about the bat as the glove, and realistically only very elite gloves play well at SS after their early '30s.  Elite bats can keep going a lot longer than that.  The argument that because Jeter's a star you can't move him off SS still doesn't hold water.

Or is Jeter really that much bigger of a star than Ripken, Banks, A-Rod, and Yount?

Posted by bad_luck on 2/18/2014 10:09:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 2/18/2014 10:00:00 PM (view original):
I dislike Jeter as much as any non-Yankee fan, but let's not get crazy here. He belongs in the top tier of shortstops.

To me, it goes Wagner, Ripken, the non-SS shortstops (Arod, Banks, Yount), and then Jeter, Trammell, Larkin (the last three can be in any order depending on your view of defensive stats).

With the exception of the last few seasons, it's unlikely the Yankees would have been better off with someone else at short.

And Vaughan, can't forget Vaughan.

And Hughie Jennings.

Hughie Jennings moved to 1B at the end of his career.

I'm asking Mike because his statements in this thread haven't suggested he got Phineas Gaged.  But thanks for your very helpful opinion.

Posted by dahsdebater on 2/19/2014 6:04:00 AM (view original):
I'm asking Mike because his statements in this thread haven't suggested he got Phineas Gaged.  But thanks for your very helpful opinion.

Phineas Gage...LOL

Luke Appling (40 y/o)  moved from SS to 3B, as did Vern Stephens (31), Maury Wills (34), Dick Groat (34), Maranville to 2b at 40....but yeah, I see why it was impossible for Jeter to do it...a HOF infielder just can't learn to play another infield  position.

Can MikeT23 get tecwg to jump off of the Brooklyn bridge?

Please?

Posted by dahsdebater on 2/18/2014 10:46:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 2/18/2014 10:08:00 PM (view original):

Posted by dahsdebater on 2/18/2014 9:41:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 2/18/2014 9:13:00 PM (view original):

As an example, Reggie wasn't very good in RF.   The A's didn't say "Hey, Reggie will DH and play some first!!!  We'll find a better rightfielder!!!!   Hell, Jesus Alou is better in the OF than Reggie!!!!!"

I know you're not dumb enough to consider this relevant.  SS and RF aren't in the same stratosphere in terms of defensive significance.  Rangy shortstops who stay healthy get 700+ balls a season; right fielders rarely get half that.  And easy plays in RF are much easier than easy plays at SS.

Not the point.   You look to improve your team.  You don't **** with your stars.   It's as simple as that and you know it.

Dumping Fosse/Green, so what?
Moving Reggie/Jeter for better defense, no.

Please tell me you understand this.   It's been a civil discussion but, if you're going to dumb up, it won't be.

You start claiming making a change at RF vs. SS is the same because the players are both stars - which, as far as I can tell, is far less relevant to defensive value and player positioning than, umm, position - and tell me I'm the one dumbing it up?  Ripken moved off SS, he was at least as big a star as Jeter.  A-Rod moved off SS.  Ernie Banks moved.  Robin Yount moved.  In fact, if you make a list of the top SS's of all time, I can't see a legitimate top 10 in which at least about half of the guys on the list changed positions later in their careers.  That's probably because the guys we consider historically great tend to be at least as much about the bat as the glove, and realistically only very elite gloves play well at SS after their early '30s.  Elite bats can keep going a lot longer than that.  The argument that because Jeter's a star you can't move him off SS still doesn't hold water.

Or is Jeter really that much bigger of a star than Ripken, Banks, A-Rod, and Yount?

You're missing the point.   Probably on purpose because it doesn't help your argument.

They all did it voluntarily(or I assume they did), dumbass.    Thus far, we've seen no indication that Jeter ever said "Oh, yeah, I'll move."   Or any sign that he was asked and refused.

Again, teams attempt to improve every year.   They give their role players new roles, maybe replace them.    What they don't do is go to the face of the franchise and say "You know what we're going to do?  Move you to LF.   Get a different glove." 

Comparing what Oakland did with Fosse/Green do what you think NY should have done with Jeter is retarded.