What part of this isn't fact?

IOW, Hunter gave up one more earned run per month over 15 seasons.

If you account for his increased HRA per 9 when given run support, I'm not sure that's even a point.

Posted by antoncresten on 2/19/2012 8:07:00 AM (view original):
PITCHERS I'VE SEEN WHO ARE IN:

KOUFAX
MARICHAL
GIBSON
SEAVER
HUNTER
CARLTON
JENKINS
RYAN
SUTTER
SMOLTZ
RIVERA

THATS IT

Working on removing pitchers from the 1960s to the present. No Gaylord Perry or Jim Palmer?

NO
PALMER WAS CLOSE

Posted by MikeT23 on 2/20/2012 4:44:00 PM (view original):
What part of this isn't fact?

IOW, Hunter gave up one more earned run per month over 15 seasons.

If you account for his increased HRA per 9 when given run support, I'm not sure that's even a point.

He still allowed runs at a lower rate over the same amount of innings, had many more strikeouts and was able to pitch an additional 1800 innings. Hunter would have had to pitch for at least another ten seasons to match Carlton, and he would have had to lower his ERA while doing it. They were NOT the same pitcher. In a given season they were similar (if you ignore Carlton's k's and lower ERA) but on an overall basis Carlton lapped Hunter.

So what part wasn't fact?

Posted by antoncresten on 2/19/2012 8:07:00 AM (view original):
PITCHERS I'VE SEEN WHO ARE IN:

KOUFAX
MARICHAL
GIBSON
SEAVER
HUNTER
CARLTON
JENKINS
RYAN
SUTTER
SMOLTZ
RIVERA

THATS IT

Smoltz but not Maddux?  Maddux has Smoltz in innings, ERA, strikeouts, ERA+, HR/9, and BB/9.  A small Hall is one thing, but I don't see any argument for Smoltz and not Maddux.

MADDUX GETS 15 YEAR PENALTY FER INSISTING ON HIS OWN PERSONAL CATCHER

A WEAK-HITTING CATCHER

Interesting.  Perry?

BORDERLINE NO

If I had to guess, I'd say jrd_x is probably in his early 20's and thinks because he understands FiP and VORP and other arcane recent stats that he somehow thinks he has a deeper understanding of baseball.

So, is this true or not??

Posted by MikeT23 on 2/19/2012 6:22:00 PM (view original):

Posted by jrd_x on 2/19/2012 6:04:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 2/19/2012 5:58:00 PM (view original):
IOW, Hunter gave up one more earned run per month over 15 seasons.

If you account for his increased HRA per 9 when given run support, I'm not sure that's even a point.

In fact, I'd say "It's not".

Same pitcher.

You are absolutely, g*dd*mn, motherf*cking retarded.  

HAHA!   I'm almost positive that you're a lefthanded dicksucker.

Confirm or deny!!!!

He didn't answer this one either.

Posted by toddcommish on 2/20/2012 11:20:00 PM (view original):

If I had to guess, I'd say jrd_x is probably in his early 20's and thinks because he understands FiP and VORP and other arcane recent stats that he somehow thinks he has a deeper understanding of baseball.

So, is this true or not??

Nope. I'm 36. Stats are stats. FIP, VORP, ERA, pitcher wins, RBI, OBP, etc. Some stats tell you more than others. I prefer to use those.

Posted by jrd_x on 2/21/2012 9:19:00 AM (view original):

Posted by toddcommish on 2/20/2012 11:20:00 PM (view original):

If I had to guess, I'd say jrd_x is probably in his early 20's and thinks because he understands FiP and VORP and other arcane recent stats that he somehow thinks he has a deeper understanding of baseball.

So, is this true or not??

Nope. I'm 36. Stats are stats. FIP, VORP, ERA, pitcher wins, RBI, OBP, etc. Some stats tell you more than others. I prefer to use those.

There's the problem.  You didn't see them pitch.

I grew up in watching baseball in the 70's.  I saw a lot of Hunter and Carlton in their primes.  At no time was the general thinking that one was better than the other,  If you don't believe me, ask anybody else who was watching baseball back then.

In cases like this, where it's fairly obvious who had the better career (hence, was the better pitcher), I don't need to have watched them pitch. And it really doesn't matter what people thought of them.

We know what happened. For roughly 3200 innings, Hunter allowed 3.26 earned runs per 9 IP. he didn't strike batters out at a high rate, and his ERA was lower than it would have been had he played in front of an average defense.

For roughly 3200 innings, Carlton allowed 3.04 earned runs per nine, struck out batters at a very high rate, and didn't benefit as much from a great defense. He then went on to pitch another 1800 innings, continuing to strike batters out at a high rate, and increased his ERA to 3.22, still lower than Hunter.

What would watching them pitch tell me?

If it was "fairly obvious", would you have other people posting in agreement with you?

Where are they?