The difference between what the Hawks could have gotten for Buff, Ladd, Versteeg and Co. is that they are no Richards or Carter. There's no way they would have fetched the NHL talent those two did, not even close. Could they have gotten more? I guess that's something we'll never know, but one would have to think that management took the best deal available in their opinion. Whether the young guys (Morin, Hayes, etc) pan out remains to be seen.

Trading Kane isn't OUT of the question, but there are couple of things to note here:

1. Kane has a NMC, which means he'd have to approve of any trade which much like Campbell, greatly reduces the number of possible suitors.
2. If Kane successfully converts to the center position (so far so good), he'd be better than any UFA or trade return at that position next to Hossa because of his elite playmaking ability.
3. Trading Kane does not necessarily free up that much cap space, because they would presumably either acquire a 4-6 million dollar center or sign one in the off-season following the deal.

I'm not opposed to a trade of Kane, but I think if it were going to happen, it was 2 years ago right after the Cup win. I don't think it's a good time now.

As for Crawford being the most important player, I agree, but I'll continue to make a case for Dave Bolland being the most important non-top 6 forward in the league. They're a different team with him in the lineup.

I think you give Bolland too much credit..just because he is in the Sedins head doesnt mean he dominates other players in the league that way

Posted by juskay on 10/9/2011 11:34:00 PM (view original):
How did the BEARS do?.........OH.....I remember the BEARS will lose tomorrow night!!!!

So?

Posted by moy23 on 10/10/2011 1:40:00 AM (view original):

Posted by mudbone1969 on 10/9/2011 10:30:00 PM (view original):
No Hawks 3rd liner has a $5M contract.

Ladd and Buff each $5 mil plus AAVs now. Versteeg to get a payday next season (traded for a 1st round pick already), Kopecky 4 yrs $12 mil. Brouwer traded for a 1st round pick. That's some nice depth behind Hossa, Kane, Toews, Sharp, Bolland.

I thought you meant we signed our 3rd liners to those deals.  Ladd deserves his deal...he's the ONE guy I really wish they could have found a way to keep.  He's what Jimmy Hayes hopes to be  I'll love Ladd until I die for what he did in 2010.  Buff cashed a deal from a stupid team on a good 1st half of a season.  I'm glad it wasn't us who gave that to him.  Good for him for getting it.  And I'll always love him for 2010 as well.

You keep slamming our depth.  I figure this is something else you made up, like when you said Brunette was "soft".  Our depth is solid as hell, especially when we get both Stalberg and Ben Smith back.  And if a 4th line of Mayers, Carbomb (who only will play of he's playing well, and you know he's a good player when he's not an assbag) Bickell or Kruger or Olesz is poor depth, then you really need to start watching the games.

Posted by andru2797 on 10/10/2011 4:45:00 PM (view original):
The difference between what the Hawks could have gotten for Buff, Ladd, Versteeg and Co. is that they are no Richards or Carter. There's no way they would have fetched the NHL talent those two did, not even close. Could they have gotten more? I guess that's something we'll never know, but one would have to think that management took the best deal available in their opinion. Whether the young guys (Morin, Hayes, etc) pan out remains to be seen.

Trading Kane isn't OUT of the question, but there are couple of things to note here:

1. Kane has a NMC, which means he'd have to approve of any trade which much like Campbell, greatly reduces the number of possible suitors.
2. If Kane successfully converts to the center position (so far so good), he'd be better than any UFA or trade return at that position next to Hossa because of his elite playmaking ability.
3. Trading Kane does not necessarily free up that much cap space, because they would presumably either acquire a 4-6 million dollar center or sign one in the off-season following the deal.

I'm not opposed to a trade of Kane, but I think if it were going to happen, it was 2 years ago right after the Cup win. I don't think it's a good time now.

As for Crawford being the most important player, I agree, but I'll continue to make a case for Dave Bolland being the most important non-top 6 forward in the league. They're a different team with him in the lineup.

I am not suggesting they could have gotten richie/carts like return for Buff, Ladd, & Versteeg.  But they might have been able to pull off more NHL ready prospects like a Wayne Simmonds, Nick Foligno, Blake Wheeler rather than guys that were 2-3 years out "if" they crack the NHL or guys that are already gone.  

For Byfuglien, Sopel, and Eager the return was Reasoner (gone now), Crabb (Gone now), Morin (injured, but was still a few years out before making the NHL), the 24th overall pick and a 2nd rounder. 

For Ladd the return was Vishnevskiy (still not ready to crack the NHL) and a 2nd round pick

For Versteeg the return was DiDomenico (not NHL ready still), Stalberg (Closest guy to NHL ready - and they almost let him walk RFA), Paradis (Not NHL ready yet) 

Jimmy Hayes was not acquired in the 'firesale' after the stanley cup. 



as for Kane - I disagree about timing. 2 years ago the city would have gone ape **** had he been dealt.  Also under the 'firesale' cap crunch they would not have gotten as much back.  Now after 'some' disappointment with last season's team play fans would be more open to a deal imo - also with a higher cap ceiling more teams could easily fit his $6.3 million AAV.  Add the fact the Hawks have cap space now so their hand is not being forced.  I don't think they need to get a $4-6 million center back.  I'd suggest getting back a guy on an entry level contract like Kadri ($1.7 mil), Wheeler ($2.5 mil), Kulemin ($2.3 mil), etc and some other lesser prospects + VERY high draft picks for Kaner. [Mike Richards nearly fetched Kulemin and Kadri from Toronto, to use as a referrence].  Then use that extra $4 mil in cap savings to go after a top FA or trade for solid talent. 2 names that come to mind are Semin and Hemsky.    

I think this would be quite nice :

Sharp-Toews-Semin
Brunette - Kadri - Hossa
Bickell - Bolland - Frolik
Olesz - Kruger - Mayers

Then you'd have Morin, and the first round picks in the minors until they are truly ready for the NHL.  

Hayes was acquired in the firesale.  He was traded for on draft night.  I can't wait to see this kid when he's deemed ready.

I like our team better with Kane at C right now.  He's a creative stud with the puck and when he has it more, he'll create more chances.  He's been good at the dot and responsible in his own end as well.  We don't need to deal him right now.

my bad - you are right - they got Hayes for a 2nd rounder. 

Leddy, stalberg, smith, and Kruger all are FAs by the end of next season and will demand more money... especially if they start to break out. Hjalmarrson and Bolland the season after that and at the same time Toews and Kane will be in contract negotiations. Why wait.... too much could go wrong in that time? With the core you guys have you should be in the win now mindset before its too late. Imo.

Posted by moy23 on 10/11/2011 2:09:00 AM (view original):
Leddy, stalberg, smith, and Kruger all are FAs by the end of next season and will demand more money... especially if they start to break out. Hjalmarrson and Bolland the season after that and at the same time Toews and Kane will be in contract negotiations. Why wait.... too much could go wrong in that time? With the core you guys have you should be in the win now mindset before its too late. Imo.

You gotta wonder, how much more money would Toews and Kane get? Stammer got 8 per season, Crosby and Malkin 8.7, Kesler 5 and the Sedins 6.1...I can't imagine them getting more than say, 6.7 on long-term deals. Bolland needs a healthy season to earn another contract, you're right about that muddy. Hammer, unless he suddenly puts together a 30-35 point season, isn't getting much more than 4. So if we assume 6.7 each for JT and PK, and 4 for Hammer, Olesz's salary coming off the books should take care of all of that and still leave us with 6-8 million in cap room, depending on where the number is in 2 seasons to sign Crawford, Leddy and Kruger. Leddy and Kruger are a little different though. If both break out at the same time, the Hawks' lineup becomes infinitely deeper, yet the cap situation becomes that much muddier (full pun intended!), a good problem to have as that simply means a better chance at a Cup in the year they break out. It also means that if they break out in their contract years, and the team is doing well, we have the option of getting a really good veteran value for them in a trade near the deadline. You may have predicted their finish, but I think I've come closer with salary predictions for FAs :-P

You could be right though moy...and believe me I'd love to win as many as possible...however one thing no one can deny is that the Hawks have built up one of the deepest cupboards of NHL-projected prospects in the league, so it's hard not to picture a deep lineup like that in the near future. I'm sure that if the team in a given season is close to top contention in February, a few of them will be moved for veteran help, a luxury made possible by the cap room that the Campbell trade created.

Either way, this team will be one of the more interesting ones to watch the next few seasons as managment's plan unfolds.

That's a good analysis. Other factors may weigh in as well like the cap at the time and the marketvalue for contracts in a couple seasons. Will the core stay healthy and will they want to stay in Chicago? Will most of these prospects be able to transition to the NHL? Can guys like Morin recover from his concussion?

Lotta things gotta go right.... but if they do it will be interesting.

Saad back to the ohl today...great move. hope he has a dominant season there. he's closer to the nhl than either mcneill or danault. if he works hard next season isn't out of the question.

Posted by andru2797 on 10/10/2011 9:04:00 AM (view original):
Wow...ok guys, put your emotions away for just one second and look at a few things objectively here.

1. Troy Brouwer, over the last few years, has had chance after chance after chance to crack the top six and earn a net presence position on the PP with the Hawks, and hasn't been able to take advantage. First of all, he has good size but too often gets out-muscled to be that net presence the Hawks need. Second, his only 20 goal season came playing on the best team in franchise history, similar to when Darren Mccarty scored at a 20 goal pace for the Wings in the late 90s; more products of the team they played on. Third, he did throw 200+ hits per season in Chicago, but I've seen more than one person here (non-Hawk fans) criticize him for not throwing big hits, and claim that his hits aren't thrown to hurt people, but because he thinks he has to. At best he was a 4th line player who played the pp part-time when he was hot. To me, that is NOT worth 2.3 million, not even close.

2. Andrew Ladd and Dustin Byfuglien, the former of which I have said many times is the one guy I wish the Hawks kept, got big paydays from the Jets (Thrashers). But to claim they are 5million+ players today is grossly over-valuing their one good season. Ladd is a very effective player. He hits, disrupts the opposition, is a great net presence and brings alot of grit. I always believed he'd be a good player, but I didn't think he was a 30 goal, 60 point player, which is what he was last season. Before we appoint him the next great power forward, how about we wait and see what happens when he becomes the focal point of opposing teams' defensive gameplan. As for Byfuglien, he still has yet to put together a good, full season. He was absolutely atrocious in the second half last year and didn't look much better yesterday. His defense is terrible, and he is probably the most inconsistent player this side of Alex Kovalev. He's got a canon for a shot and is one of the most intimidating physical players in the game when he wants to be, the problem is that he too often would rather be somehwere else. Ladd may be worth his 5 million if he can keep it up, but Buff has yet to show me that he can earn his money. The Hawks simply chose Sharp and Bolland over Buff, a choice I would make again and again.

3. Kris Versteeg is a bit of an enigma to me. I live him as a player and to this day would take him back in a heartbeat, but I can't for the life of me figure out why he's had so much trouble fitting in everywhere he's been since the Hawks. had it not been for that RFA snafu, he's still be a Hawk most likely and that one is on management. I don't think you'll find a Hawk fan who would tell you that they DON'T blame them for that. That being said, it's really tough to say if Versteeg would have been the 50+ point pest we all knew and loved if he stayed, or the below-average scoring winger he's become since.

4. Ben Eager and Adam Burish, as effective as they were, got alot of money for players of their calibre. a combined 2.2 million is a little much for part-time 4th liners, no matter how effective they are. That's not say I didn't like having them, but I think anyone would admit they, along with Sopel, would probably have been the most expendable Hawks.

5. Tomas Kopecky got a TON of money to go to Florida. 3 million per season. Ask yourself this question: If the salary floor wasn't where it is, would any team pay Tomas Kopecky 3 million per season? The answer is absolutely not. The Hawks could have kept Kopy, but again, he would have likely been retained at 2 million+, and that's too much for 15 goals and a part-time top 6 player.

6. Last but not least, Brian Campbell. If the salary floor was where it is now two years ago, and the Panthers needed NHL bodies and salary, they most likely would have made the deal then. The fact is that for Campbell to be traded, the circumstances had to be just right, and he needed to accept the deal as well. Not an easy trade to make at all, but a necessary one. Yes, we lost a good player in 51. Yes, he fit our system perfectly. No there is no direct replacement on the roster today. This is a loss on the ice, but a gain in salary cap room and future franchise financial health. Make no mistake, this was a salary dump, pure and simple.

Now having said all that, I believe most of these players would likely have been retained had it not been for the salary cap and RFA issue, which I do blame management for. But the reality is the salary cap is there. How do you give up Jonathan Toews, Patrick Kane, Patrick Sharp, Marian Hossa, Duncan Keith or Brent Seabrook, all proven NHL commodities, for guys who at the time, had never put together a fully consistent 82 game season, or had never scored more than 50 points? Any GM in his right mind would have made the same choices at the time. Whatever happenes after that is kind of out of your control.

Consider also that team chemistry was probably taken into account. They kept the group that was likely the most close knit, in order to try and rebuild as quickly as possible. That's probably why Bolland and Hammer were retained.

Look, anyone is entitled to their opinion, but to ignore any facts that do not suit your argument is the definition of being biased. I don't think I ever said the Hawks wouldn't miss any of these players they lost. All I keep saying is that, given that they had to chose, they made the right choices.

Pretty hard to argue with anything said here.