Quote: Originally posted by Fregoe on 11/19/2009well I didnt look at the chip counts but if that was me I push 80% of the time.  the other 20% i limp and hope someone raises and than I get all in.

Yeah, if you're looking to getting it all-in though, what's the point in limping any % of the time? In that spot, just taking the blinds and antes represents a pretty high percentage of what you'd win if you beat a caller.

Quote: Originally Posted By tylermathias on 11/19/2009

Quote: Originally posted by Fregoe on 11/19/2009
well I didnt look at the chip counts but if that was me I push 80% of the time. the other 20% i limp and hope someone raises and than I get all in.

Yeah, if you're looking to getting it all-in though, what's the point in limping any % of the time? In that spot, just taking the blinds and antes represents a pretty high percentage of what you'd win if you beat a caller

tm, Tournies and cash games are 2 completely different animals.

Cash games is a grind. I always keep pots small until I hit the big hand and try to get paid off. Mike McD said your trying to win one big pot ever hour. Not so in tournies. Chip accumulation is key and push/fold is a huge part of the end game especiailly in these fast structures. Theres a concept called ICM (independent chip model) which I tried to learn a couple years ago. I don't know it well enough to teach though unfortunately.

Quote: Originally Posted By tylermathias on 11/19/2009The problem with your logic there is that "the book" these days includes many chapters on how to combat loose play efficiently.

It's a matter of degree. You definitely want to show up with junk from time to time to keep them on their toes. But if you play a lot of volume, playing like Durr or Farha will lose you money over time unless you are ridiculously good at postflop read

does anyone have the info form the tournament Tue... I would bet that I played a smaller % of hand than almost anyone until we were down to 5 or 6.

Yeah, you probably did. But I was responding to your posts, not your play.

I like the subtle and not so subtle table image building that comes with these discussions.

Quote: Originally Posted By tylermathias on 11/19/2009

Quote: Originally posted by Fregoe on 11/19/2009
well I didnt look at the chip counts but if that was me I push 80% of the time. the other 20% i limp and hope someone raises and than I get all in.

Yeah, if you're looking to getting it all-in though, what's the point in limping any % of the time? In that spot, just taking the blinds and antes represents a pretty high percentage of what you'd win if you beat a caller

the small blind might call representing more chips.... and I want the SB or BB to push with a medicore hand they might fold to an all in raise. Like I said Most of the time I do push but if I do it everytime than I should just play my cards face up.

limp with 88 and blinds just call the flop comes 10-5-2

SB pushes all-in. Whats your move? Read on SB is he can push all in with a made hand top pair or better or A5 or even 34.

Folding would seem weak to me with all that money in the pot but calling could be the end of the tourney. Shoving pre gives you none of these problems.

Quote: Originally Posted By Fregoe on 11/19/2009

Quote: Originally Posted By tylermathias on 11/19/2009

Quote: Originally posted by Fregoe on 11/19/2009

well I didnt look at the chip counts but if that was me I push 80% of the time. the other 20% i limp and hope someone raises and than I get all in.

Yeah, if you're looking to getting it all-in though, what's the point in limping any % of the time? In that spot, just taking the blinds and antes represents a pretty high percentage of what you'd win if you beat a caller.

the small blind might call representing more chips.... and I want the SB or BB to push with a medicore hand they might fold to an all in raise. Like I said Most of the time I do push but if I do it everytime than I should just play my cards face up

So you want QJ to raise all in and race off your remaining chips instead of taking down a good amount in blinds and antes?

Quote: Originally Posted By tylermathias on 11/19/2009

Quote: Originally posted by Fregoe on 11/19/2009
well I didnt look at the chip counts but if that was me I push 80% of the time. the other 20% i limp and hope someone raises and than I get all in.

Yeah, if you're looking to getting it all-in though, what's the point in limping any % of the time? In that spot, just taking the blinds and antes represents a pretty high percentage of what you'd win if you beat a caller

Maybe I am thinking that someone will try to come over the top on me at which point I am going to call any way. And if the flop come out I can still make some sort of read and get away if it is a total disaster.

And gator you said the only flop that pays me off was the one I got, but there are several others that would have helped, not all needing an 8 in them. Odds are here that I end up pushing all in after the flop no matter what comes, however limping gives me the chance to double up/triple up and not just pick up blinds.

I see what you're saying, but for me...

1. I'm not looking to pot-build with a middling pocket pair, and

2. I'm not too worried about mixing up play with an M of 2 or 3. But I probably shove 80% in our scenario, fold 15%, and limp 5%. However, my action would be based on table reads, not an attempt to appear unpredictable.

Another thing that would effect your play here is are you playing to cash? To win? How much would not cashing effect you.

Well, Tuesday sucked as I couldnt stay connected, got frustrated and shoved from the big with AQ only to run into the small blinds AK.

Anyhow here is my miniFTOPs schedule if anyone wants to play one or more of these events with me:

Event #1 Wed. December 9:00pm - $20+2 NL Holdem 6 max

Event #3 Thursday December 10 9:00pm - $50 + 5 NL Holdem 3x Shootout

Event #8 Sunday December 13 1:00pm - $24 + 2 NL Holdem Knockout 6 max

Event #9 Sunday December 13 3:00pm - $50 + 5 NL Holdem Heads Up

Event #10 Sunday December 13 5:00pm - $30 +3 NL Holdem

Event #14 Tuesday December 15 9:00pm - $50 +5 HORSE

Event #19 Thursday December 17 9:00pm - $20 +2 Limit Holdem

Event #21 Friday December 18 9:00pm - $30 +3 Razz 6 max

Event #22 Saturday December 19 1:00pm - $250 +16 NL Holdem Ante 2-Day

Event #24 Sunday December 20 1:00pm - $12 +1 NL Holdem Knockout

Main Event Sunday December 20 5:00pm - $50 +5 NL Holdem

These events are a ton of fun with huge fields and many start deep stacked (5000 or 7500 chips instead of 3000 or 1500). They are extremely cheap compared to payouts and you can qualify for most for $5-10 bucks.

Quote: Originally Posted By gator993 on 11/19/2009

Quote: Originally Posted By Fregoe on 11/19/2009

Quote: Originally Posted By tylermathias on 11/19/2009

Quote: Originally posted by Fregoe on 11/19/2009

well I didnt look at the chip counts but if that was me I push 80% of the time. the other 20% i limp and hope someone raises and than I get all in.

Yeah, if you're looking to getting it all-in though, what's the point in limping any % of the time? In that spot, just taking the blinds and antes represents a pretty high percentage of what you'd win if you beat a caller.

the small blind might call representing more chips.... and I want the SB or BB to push with a medicore hand they might fold to an all in raise. Like I said Most of the time I do push but if I do it everytime than I should just play my cards face up.

So you want QJ to raise all in and race off your remaining chips instead of taking down a good amount in blinds and antes

if you are donw to 4BB you need to double up not steal linds..... So YES

Quote: Originally Posted By kneeneighbor on 11/19/2009Another thing that would effect your play here is are you playing to cash? To win? How much would not cashing effect you

If you are playing to cash youre probably playing in a tournament which is to big for your bankroll. Meaning all the real money is near the top 3-5 spots in any given tournament. If you play the bubble in the manner of trying to win, in theory the amount of chips gained (sometimes even a doubling of your stack) AND the ability to go deeper into the tournament should end up realizing a greater profit of simply trying to get in and being out several minutes later.

Quote: Originally Posted By kneeneighbor on 11/19/2009Another thing that would effect your play here is are you playing to cash? To win? How much would not cashing effect you

play to win!!! playing to cash will cost you more than it will make you