picking unseld was a lot harder...there were two other guys i really liked

had to go with with my first repeat savage pick tho...defense isnt what i wanted but no one else could match his combo of dreb% ast% and low fp48

may go out for a while but will check in regularly - hopefully we can keep it moving.

sh*t that was a good pick Midge

So Unseld is just a Camby backup, right?

I needed more usage at SF, otherwise I might have considered Bo. It's tough to swing a 10-13% usage SF when you already have a board lord. But you have the usage to cover with Hakeem, Wade, etc. Still got work to do at PG/SG though, to improve on Butler and Brandon's meh seasons.

Also I thought John Collins was a really good pick.

Posted by bds9992 on 3/16/2021 2:28:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tarheel1991 on 3/16/2021 2:09:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bds9992 on 3/16/2021 1:47:00 PM (view original):
to me there are very real pitfalls of not addressing center early. LeBron brings more actual value to the table, but Wilt is more useful. I always come back to this point of good vs. useful. LeBron is better, Wilt is more needed for his rebounding, defense, minutes, and occupancy of the center position

1. What are the pitfalls of not addressing center early?
2. How can Wilt possibly be "more needed" for his defense then Lebron, when he has worse D and can guard many fewer positions? Leaving aside that good perimeter D is tougher to find than good post D.

A1: the pitfalls of not addressing center early include:
a. severe lack of passing, unacceptable at any other position
b. severe lack of eFG%, unacceptable at any other position even in the early rounds (e.g. Ben Wallace)
c. very high fouls (e.g. Tree)
d. especially in this league, low minutes
e. rebounding
f. inadequate defense (by my definition, below 75) at the most common position taken in the 1st round

(As an example, I would offer that the three champs, kinoa, pex and dB (Shaq, KG and DRob) all picked a center eligible player in the first round. yes, I'm aware 02-03 KG would play SF, but I don't believe any of the other used seasons were SF eligible)

A2: I'm not suggesting that Wilt is a better or more versatile defender. I'm suggesting that Wilt is a sufficient defender at a position in which finding such a defender without the aforementioned pitfalls is difficult. It is easier to find a perimeter defender with low usage and fewer of the aforementioned pitfalls than it is to find a center of similar quality. I'd even argue that center should be the crux of any draft strategy in any league, but that's a whole different discussion and I have to imagine you all have had enough of my ghost pepper-level hot takes for one week.

That's fair. I think waiting too long on point guards brings similar and worse pitfalls. And the fact that Chamberlain is limited to one position severely limits the impact of his defense, because you basically still have to pick another high-D player at PF. (Similar issue for Shaq.) But I understand where you're coming from.

I too understand where you're coming from. I'm a little confused because I can't think of any point guards who would ever be acceptable with Bill Russell's eFG% and average defense at their position, let alone in the early rounds, but we can't go through everyone right now.

Posted by bds9992 on 3/16/2021 10:05:00 PM (view original):
I too understand where you're coming from. I'm a little confused because I can't think of any point guards who would ever be acceptable with Bill Russell's eFG% and average defense at their position, let alone in the early rounds, but we can't go through everyone right now.

I think you are trying to make an interesting point here and I am willing to go through the rabbit hole with you. But I can’t figure out what the point is. Can you restate?

Posted by robusk on 3/16/2021 10:37:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bds9992 on 3/16/2021 10:05:00 PM (view original):
I too understand where you're coming from. I'm a little confused because I can't think of any point guards who would ever be acceptable with Bill Russell's eFG% and average defense at their position, let alone in the early rounds, but we can't go through everyone right now.

I think you are trying to make an interesting point here and I am willing to go through the rabbit hole with you. But I can’t figure out what the point is. Can you restate?

I will try.

We make greater concessions for rebounders than we do for passers or two way players. While there may be serviceable big men and point guards available late in drafts, even second and third round centers come with flaws we would not accept at any other position were it not for their rebounding and defense. There is a sharper fall off in quality for big men than there is for perimeter players. If I were to plot eFG%, Def, Ast%, FP48, TO%, and Usg% for point guard-eligible and center-eligible players over the first five rounds of any draft, there would be a much sharper dropoff in those qualities for center-eligible players than there would be for point guard-eligible players.

Posted by bds9992 on 3/16/2021 10:53:00 PM (view original):

Posted by robusk on 3/16/2021 10:37:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bds9992 on 3/16/2021 10:05:00 PM (view original):
I too understand where you're coming from. I'm a little confused because I can't think of any point guards who would ever be acceptable with Bill Russell's eFG% and average defense at their position, let alone in the early rounds, but we can't go through everyone right now.

I think you are trying to make an interesting point here and I am willing to go through the rabbit hole with you. But I can’t figure out what the point is. Can you restate?

I will try.

We make greater concessions for rebounders than we do for passers or two way players. While there may be serviceable big men and point guards available late in drafts, even second and third round centers come with flaws we would not accept at any other position were it not for their rebounding and defense. There is a sharper fall off in quality for big men than there is for perimeter players. If I were to plot eFG%, Def, Ast%, FP48, TO%, and Usg% for point guard-eligible and center-eligible players over the first five rounds of any draft, there would be a much sharper dropoff in those qualities for center-eligible players than there would be for point guard-eligible players.

Hmm. I’m on my phone walking the dog so I can’t run the exact numbers. But off the top of my head of what I remember on ADP and stats, going off of what your last two posts said, say I was looking at something like this:

Scenario A
LeBron
Tyson Chandler
Drexler

Scenario B
Chris Paul
Kemp
Horace Grant

Scenario 3
Wilt
Nash
Russell

I think I would take either of the first two scenarios. I think I have created a similar rebounding advantage, good efficiency, and defensive flexibility without being boxed into the corner for the other two positions. I am
trapped in scenario 3. Even with Kobe in Nash’s place I would feel similarly as I can’t simply go BPA. I think it can definitely be done. Our very own jhsukow is doing it. He is good af. But I’d still take the first two

I don't think your three scenarios reflect the point I'm trying to make. You asked me to restate and I did. I think we should leave it there. I don't want more confusion than is necessary

I don’t have the numbers anymore. I’d have to rerun them, but it wouldn’t be too hard. I only had the first two drafts to go off when I did it. But the VORP at the PG position is the most drastic over all five spots.

Apples to apples, we talking savage or single season salary?

Posted by bds9992 on 3/16/2021 11:04:00 PM (view original):
I don't think your three scenarios reflect the point I'm trying to make. You asked me to restate and I did. I think we should leave it there. I don't want more confusion than is necessary

Okay. Fair enough. Your Russell post really threw me off tbf. I can drop it.

Posted by jhsukow on 3/16/2021 11:06:00 PM (view original):
Apples to apples, we talking savage or single season salary?

I was talking Savage personally. I won’t speak for anyone else.