lifetime ban is impossible. they'd just start a new account. actually, i have to wonder if a few of the posts that seem to be silly in their rationale aren't them already posting in whatever secondary account they have....

I missed the first cycle in Smith recruiting because of this.

damn you cheaters!!!!! haha

Posted by beachhouse on 11/1/2022 5:42:00 PM (view original):

Posted by jc14 on 11/1/2022 2:52:00 PM (view original):
robinhood410 is my dad. He is one of the people caught up in this ridiculous ordeal. He has taught me a lot of things, including a true love for HD, and, more importantly, he has taught me honestly and integrity not just through his words but by his deeds. He is not a cheater. Neither are Doogan or Cimmy426 (who are my uncles) nor BDash - a good friend of theirs. I don't know this swenske guy or anyone else that was banned (maybe they're terrible people who cheat at everything, I dunno), but I do know those guys, and they were absolutely NOT doing anything that they thought was, in ANY WAY, against the rules or against any fair play.

I have been following this forum since they got banned, and a lot of people have jumped to some wild conclusions. This whole "scheme" as people have so eloquently labeled it, was as simple as this - if you inform a recruit that he will be redshirted and then, in a later cycle, if you inform him that he will NOT be redshirted, you gain some "recruiting credit." My uncle (cimmy426) discovered this, by accident, one day when he changed his mind about redshirting a guy, informed him of no redshirt and noticed that he had improved his status with the recruit just by that action. My uncle (who is also a highly respected HBD commissioner who has ferreted out cheaters himself) thought that it might be a glitch, so he immediately reported it to Customer Service. And, NOT ONLY did CS not tell him that it was against the rules, but they CONFIRMED that it provided recruiting benefits.

So, they figured that it was part of the game, which makes sense to me, too. I mean wouldn't a recruit want to hear that he was definitely NOT going to be redshirted? Of course he would! So, it makes sense that you would gain some recruiting credit by telling a kid "hey, i will NOT redshirt you." And, what also makes sense, is that it wasn't all that much credit - maybe equal to about 30-40 APs, which seems like a lot when used a ton in the first day (to benis's original point), but it wasn't swinging any individual battles by more than a percentage point or two. That said, the point about the perception of effort is a good one. So, for that, I am glad that it is coming to light. Because if people know about it (and, these guys had no reason to think that people did not know about it), then maybe that "perception advantage" wouldn't be an advantage. That's a fair point and reason to change the system, but still shows that they did nothing wrong.

Also, and this is another key point, there are downsides to it. One, you can't "lay claim" to a recruit because it takes multiple cycles to play out (inform of redshirt then inform of no redshirt then use APs). But, that's minor. The major downside is that sometimes, if the recruit was at a level of quality that would never accept a redshirt from your team, he would get very mad at the "inform of redshirt" and no amount of recruiting effort (including "inform of no redshirt") would make him consider you at all. Everything would be 0% even with like a thousand APs or whatever.. Nothing. So, this "trick" or "hack" as you guys call it, or "viable recruiting gamble" as these guys thought of it, was just that - a gamble. It was of absolutely no use in D2. And that is why (before you all ask) I have never used it - not because I, in any way, thought it was cheating (I would never cheat...my dad taught me that) - I have never used it because I have never played in D1 and, in D2, I usually try to recruit D1 guys (another thing my dad taught me) and D1 guys would never accept a redshirt at D2, so this "hack" would have backfired on me. So, these guys looked at it as a viable, legal, open recruiting gamble at D1 that was available to anyone but had to be used strategically. My dad and these guys never used it on their top targets or on anyone they didn't want to risk losing. They only used it for fallback options and rotation pieces and stuff. You all weren't "robbed of championships" because of it, I promise. Also, they never did it in D2. So, for those that want to tear them all down and say that their success was simply due to some ridiculous cheating conspiracy, take a step back and look at their D2 resumes and their resumes before they stumbled upon this thing. They are very good at this game and have tried to teach me the best they could. They do not collude. They do not cheat. They play the game fairly, and they play the game well. Many of you should know that after all the years you've played with them.

So, to me the bottom line is that this became a runaway train that has just run over a couple of really good users and, more importantly, a couple of really good people. It's fine. They all have full lives without Whatifsports, but they have been, from what I can tell, highly respected members of this online community for 18 years...EIGHTEEN YEARS!!! And, now they are getting railroaded out of here for something that they did not even know was wrong AND for something that they brought to the attention of Customer Service when they first discovered it.

I am proud of my dad and my uncles. They handle their lives with integrity and honesty and took this injustice a lot better than I would have. I just really hope you all read this post with objectivity and open minds because they didn't do anything wrong.

Respectfully,
JC14

Finding a loophole and exploiting it without the knowledge of everyone is still exploiting a loophole for personal gain.

Is it a loophole though?

Posted by topdogggbm on 11/1/2022 5:44:00 PM (view original):
I missed the first cycle in Smith recruiting because of this.

damn you cheaters!!!!! haha

Mission Accomplished guys, we can stop now.

The intent is also an important factor to consider. Even if they reported it to CS at some point, the continued use of the exploit doesn't make it right. That's like someone robbing a bank, telling the police that they robbed a bank but the police don't do anything, and then decided that robbing banks must be fine so they'll keep doing it.

In fact, reporting it to CS in the first place tells us that they knew it wasn't intended. I mean, its clearly not intended. That shouldn't be in doubt.

ZL33 asked me earlier if I would have used the exploit if I knew about it. I immediately wanted to say "no, of course not", but that's probably not true. Sometimes we need a player so badly, and I'm sure I would have used it on at least a few recruits. But if I got caught doing it, I wouldn't try to defend myself. I would know it was wrong and would accept the consequences.

I'm sure those dudes are decent human beings in real life. Just sounds like human nature got the best of them, and they got a little greedy. I don't support a lifetime ban or anything. But they do need to vacate those teams at the very least.

It also makes me wonder how many additional credits were earned due to this. How many credits were taken away from other users over the years? Just like steroids in baseball, you can say that 70 homeruns in a season is due to steroids, but you can't look at any single homerun and determine whether it was steroids or not.

Posted by npb7768 on 11/1/2022 5:17:00 PM (view original):

Posted by almersk on 11/1/2022 4:50:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bpielcmc on 11/1/2022 4:49:00 PM (view original):
Hearing the other point of view, I think this thread overdid it.

Fix the logic (maybe you now need APs to unlock inform of redshirt? because I do get how definitely ruling out a redshirt could give you a boost to a recruit) and move on. It seems like CS should have taken the report more seriously when it was first reported and not let it get to this point.

I do not support lifetime bans. Or even removing coaches from their teams. The enjoyment I get out of this game is in no way tied to how draconian the punishment of others is.

Some sort of probation modeled on the NCAA probations could be fine. EDIT: If a punishment is necessary at all.

We have some reasonable posters now. Thank you to RiddleFace and bpielcmc for speaking up. Speak up if you agree that the punishment is out of wack. I am heartened by topdogg and shoe and some others that seem to be applying some reason to the situation, despite their concerns..

Nice attempt, but stop trying to turn the tables to make us the bad guys.

I would agree with Bpiel's framework... NCAA type penalty. Either vacate their titles, or drop them to D3, or both, or make them play with limited scholarships for X amount of years, or some combination.

What do you, almersk, think should happen here? Just continue on, give them a mulligan? Everything moves forward as normal?

And Tmac's point about 3 championships at Hawaii is an excellent one. Dude was pretty much selecting International players like he was at a buffet line.

Oh I don't think you're bad guys. What I think happened is that this was uncovered, and some did what has become typical in our society today. There was a rush to cancel people without proper context or even enough information. I think this was fostered by, what appears to be, previously inadequate responses to similar situations by CS over the years. I do believe that, with some people, there has been an element of confirmation bias. Couple this with the fact that the coaches that I'm vouching for happen to be legit hall of fame level coaches so their success acts as just more evidence of chicanery, especially to those predisposed to said confirmation bias, and these things have conspired to create pitchfork time.

Let us keep in mind CS' initial response was the following: "There won't be repercussions against the user as it's not a violation and he wasn't doing anything outside the game. He found a loophole with the current system and the devs are aware and will look to close this."

How did we get from that place to a lifetime ban in a matter of hours? I definitely understand why doing nothing would not be acceptable to some. I happen to think there are plenty of mitigating factors here to deem a warning (and fix the glitch!) enough, but I absolutely recognize why others do not feel the same. But even the most upset in here do not seem to be advocating for a lifetime ban. Even the "pitchforkers" don't want to execute their catch. Like i said, this reeks of panic and overreaction. You guys may have done the community a service by creating a stronger reaction, but I also think you would be doing it a further service by advocating for something more sensible. It sounds like almost everyone already is. I know these guys to be people of integrity, for real, and it's hard to listen to their names being dragged to this degree. Thanks for listening

Posted by topdogggbm on 11/1/2022 5:44:00 PM (view original):
I missed the first cycle in Smith recruiting because of this.

damn you cheaters!!!!! haha

Benis started this thread with clear intent to distract TopDogg (and countless other dedicated HD coaches) from RS1 in Smith world. This is egregious and can’t be condoned. I demand to see how much of a lead Benis has gained on each of his recruits after cycle 1. To think we were going to name a world after him..
just kidding, okay back to the discussion.

Posted by gigrant on 11/1/2022 5:43:00 PM (view original):
lifetime ban is impossible. they'd just start a new account. actually, i have to wonder if a few of the posts that seem to be silly in their rationale aren't them already posting in whatever secondary account they have....

cimmy426 must have really hurt you.

So now that we know the method that was being used to unlock scholarships, what exactly is the rule violation?

As an aside...

How ****** are these guys at swenske right now? Lol.

"Our days of championships are over now. We have to sweat it out like the rest of the herd. Thanks a-hole!"

I would really like to see the real email exchange between the loophole exploiters and CS before passing judgment. Getting a secondhand account of what was said between the two parties and taking it as gospel would be a mistake. That's not an attack upon the informer; it's just good judgment. I'm sure, or at least I hope, CS stores all exchanges just for these types of events.

If you go to ATM and realize if you hit a certain sequence of buttons it'll spit out a hundred dollars and then tell the bank of this flaw, and they verify it but make no effort to fix nor inform the rest of the community of it, I'm reluctant to issue lifetime bans. Stripping them of their teams, credits, and sending them back to D3 would seem fitting for what was clearly an unfair advantage. But as I said, I'd like to know more from CS.

Posted by almersk on 11/1/2022 6:06:00 PM (view original):

Posted by gigrant on 11/1/2022 5:43:00 PM (view original):
lifetime ban is impossible. they'd just start a new account. actually, i have to wonder if a few of the posts that seem to be silly in their rationale aren't them already posting in whatever secondary account they have....

cimmy426 must have really hurt you.

i will get a doll and use it to show you where.

Posted by RiddleFace on 11/1/2022 6:08:00 PM (view original):
So now that we know the method that was being used to unlock scholarships, what exactly is the rule violation?

Cheating

All owners must play by the rules and requirements set forth by each game on our site. If an owner discovers a loophole, a way to cheat, or any other method of giving himself an unfair advantage, WhatIfSports reserves the right to take the necessary steps to correct the issue at any time without prior notification. Refunds or roster changes will not be given to any owner in this situation.

There you go buddy. Imagine reading the rules.

Again, some people think this stuff is closer to an Easter Egg than a rules violation. This isn’t complicated.

Posted by gigrant on 11/1/2022 6:16:00 PM (view original):

Posted by almersk on 11/1/2022 6:06:00 PM (view original):

Posted by gigrant on 11/1/2022 5:43:00 PM (view original):
lifetime ban is impossible. they'd just start a new account. actually, i have to wonder if a few of the posts that seem to be silly in their rationale aren't them already posting in whatever secondary account they have....

cimmy426 must have really hurt you.

i will get a doll and use it to show you where.

Anyone else uncomfortable? Oy.