Writing the HBD Handbook Topic

zbrent716
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Quote: Originally Posted By knucklebones on 9/19/2009
Overall ratings mean very little sometimes.

True, and even though they've gotten closer with updates, it is probably worth mentioning in a "handbook" that OVR are not the be-all-end-all and should be used only as a guideline.

Don't join public leagues if you can help it.

Not sure this belongs in something like a handbook.

Control is very important for pitchers.

I happen to agree with this 100%, but it is, when it comes right down to it, just an opinion. There are some owners who value splits much more highly and are fine with a low control pitcher, and some of those owners have had success too, so who is to say that what you and I think is "correct."

Play a SS in the SS position. (League averages are shown)

As with high control pitchers, I agree 100% (and try to exceed league rec's if at all possible) but some owners prefer the big bat and sacrifice the D. I don't think the handbook should be based on mere differing opinions like this, but instead should present some evidence - even anecdotal - of the relative impact of poor fielding and then allow owners to judge for themselves whether the stronger bat/wheels are worth the hit to fielding.

Dont use a LH throwing player in the infield.

This, on the other hand, must be included (though clarified to apply to only 2B, 3B, SS) because there is a built-in penalty that isn't aparent from merely looking at a player's ratings.

[If you have great pitching, use a good hitting C.

If you have average pitching use a Higher PC C.]

Would love to see meaningful support for this, especially since it's something I don't happen to agree with.

Theres some stuff..



9/19/2009 1:24 PM
pstrnutbag44
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Z, Hargrave in Major Leagues hasn't convinced you of that? I've never had a catcher with a PC above 63, yet I am always amongst the league leaders in pitching, especially OAV. Knuckles is right on when it comes to the Low Vs High PC thing. Quality pitchers negate their value.
9/19/2009 1:27 PM
zbrent716
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Some things I've noticed that may not be apparent at first glance (all subject to further engine adjustments, of course).

Major things

Stolen Bases - There is a huge discrepency in the effectiveness and frequency of thefts when you reach the upper echelon guys (95+/95+ speed/baserunning) compared to guys you might expect to be close to the prouction (~80/80). A top flight base stealer can easily go 150/155 in SB, and under the current engine, even top defensive catchers will not catch them consistently. What the top defensive catcher will do, however, is gun down the merely good and marginal basestealer so that he ends up with a good CS%.

Hit-By-Pitch - There is a relationship between HBP and the "temper" ratings. Generally speaking, the league leaders in HBP will have a zero or very low temper rating.

Fatigue - Generally speaking, unless you are facing fatigued pitching (so scoring many runs) or perhaps play in a park like Coors, a position player anywhere by catcher can play every day at 100% with a Durability rating above 85 or so. Depending on circumstances, they can sometimes stay at 100% with even less Durability. Position played impacts fatigue - catchers fatigue most quickly and noticably, and after that is seems to roughly follow the defensive spectrum (SS fatigues more quickly than 1B, who fatigues more quickly than DH, etc.)
9/19/2009 1:36 PM
zbrent716
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Quote: Originally Posted By pstrnutbag44 on 9/19/2009
Z, Hargrave in Major Leagues hasn't convinced you of that? I've never had a catcher with a PC above 63, yet I am always amongst the league leaders in pitching, especially OAV. Knuckles is right on when it comes to the Low Vs High PC thing. Quality pitchers negate their value.
No, he hasn't convinced me of it. Your home park is (-1, -2, -2, -1, -1) and you have excellent pitchers.

I, arguably, have comperable pitchers (though yours may actually be better), but play in a slight hitters' park (0, 2, 2, 0, 0). Yet, for most of the World's history, my pitchers have put up better numbers. While some of this may be attributable to better defense at other positions, I think some has to do with the higher quality defensive catcher as well.

When you rely on Hargrave to prove that PC doesn't matter much with good pitchers, I think you overlook at least 2 things - 1) he's not *that* bad a defensive catcher; 2) park impacts are *very* important.

Just look at this past season, where your pitchers posted better overall numbers.

Oakland at home: 3.29 ERA
Oakland on the road: 4.22 ERA
Oakland overall: 3.75 ERA

Maybe with a top flight defensive catcher, your road ERA would be in the top 1/4 of the league?
9/19/2009 1:47 PM
schuyler101
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Quote: Originally posted by knucklebones on 9/19/2009I didn't put stuff down to argue. PC catchers adjust the strength of the pitches. If your pitchers have great control and vs L/R they are less apt to need the extra modification towards the pitches. It is a slight adjustment which is more pronounced the crappier your pitchers are. I know this through many seasons of experience in addition to the devs. explanation of it.  

Sorry to start an argument but you stated it as advice for newbies and i think it is hardly proven. If it is more pronounced for crappier pitchers then I stand corrected, but I've never seen anything like that in any of the dev chats (which i've read as well) and I don't think you've run a statistical analysis yourself. Do you have info from a ticket? Or the line from the devo chat itself?
9/19/2009 2:18 PM
schuyler101
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Any newbie should make an attempt to get through as many of the devo chats as possible
9/19/2009 2:20 PM
MikeT23
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Nothing can replace experience. Play the game. WRT to ratings, the general rule is 1 is bad, 100 is good. There should never be a need to ask "Which one?", "Is this guy good?", "Why does this guy suck?"

Then you can sort out the petty arguments that have already started.
9/19/2009 3:21 PM
knucklebones
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Yeah well use your defensive catchers on a great staff if you want. I dont care and dont care to explain why that would be overkill. I've gotten to the WS (lost) with a 37 PC catcher in one of the higher quality worlds (Williamson) and I've also won it with a 59 PC catcher in another league with strict guidelines and good competition (Double Mendoza). I guess I could've done better with the fantastic defensive guy. In fact, of the 5 WS I've been to, ALL of the Cs had less than 70 PC (Starters). What does it mean? I can't say, but I will do it my way.

Im just putting out suggestions and trying to help. Take what is useful and trash the rest. We all have our opinions on things.
9/19/2009 4:50 PM
schuyler101
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Quote: Originally posted by MikeT23 on 9/19/2009Nothing can replace experience.   Play the game.   WRT to ratings, the general rule is 1 is bad, 100 is good.   There should never be a need to ask "Which one?", "Is this guy good?", "Why does this guy suck?"Then you can sort out the petty arguments that have already started.

wrong, information can replace experience

we can tell a newbie that they can't play a y at 2nd base, or they can find it out on their own

we can tell a newbie about how many games a player can play with a certain durability level, or how many innings a pitcher can throw during the year, or they can find out on their own

there are things newbs don't have to find out on their own

why not make a guide for them?

The HD guide was outstanding for me when i started out and i pretty much hit the ground running over there, of course that forum was much more helpful than this one
9/19/2009 4:56 PM
schuyler101
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Quote: Originally posted by knucklebones on 9/19/2009Yeah well use your defensive catchers on a great staff if you want. I dont care and dont care to explain why that would be overkill. I've gotten to the WS (lost) with a 37 PC catcher in one of the higher quality worlds (Williamson) and I've also won it with a 59 PC catcher in another league with strict guidelines and good competition (Double Mendoza). I guess I could've done better with the fantastic defensive guy. In fact, of the 5 WS I've been to, ALL of the Cs had less than 70 PC (Starters). What does it mean? I can't say, but I will do it my way.Im just putting out suggestions and trying to help. Take what is useful and trash the rest. We all have our opinions on things.

anecdotal, and meaningless without more context.

you won the WS with an average PC catcher? this is only slightly less meaningless than the person who inevitably says they lead the league in ERA with an average PC catcher.

I'd like to see hard statistics or direct quotes from devo chats rather than anecdotes
9/19/2009 5:01 PM
MikeT23
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Quote: Originally Posted By schuyler101 on 9/19/2009
Quote: Originally posted by MikeT23 on 9/19/2009
Nothing can replace experience. Play the game. WRT to ratings, the general rule is 1 is bad, 100 is good. There should never be a need to ask "Which one?", "Is this guy good?", "Why does this guy suck?"

Then you can sort out the petty arguments that have already started.

wrong, information can replace experience



And wrong information can screw them up.

Obviously, since some of you are already arguing over right/wrong, there's a problem.

Unless, of course, you're the authority on HBD. Please let us know all the ins and outs.

Thanks in advance.
9/19/2009 7:40 PM
MikeT23
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And, if there's a retard who doesn't know the 2B/SS/3B aren't handed, he should probably find out on his own.

It's simulated BASEBALL.
9/19/2009 7:42 PM
iain
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Personally, and I don't claim to have all the answers, but I think a good primer for player movement rules in MLB would be more useful than telling someone not to play a handed thrower at SS.

If you don't know about baseball common sense, this game is probably too deep for you.

However, I can honestly say I had no idea about the more intricate details of minor league options, 40-man rosters, etc. until I had a few seasons under my belt here.

Of course, I'm also the type where step 1 is to throw away the instructions... I'd rather learn through my own experience than have things spoon fed to me. I think you understand the "why" a lot better if you've learned the hard way, rather than just have things handed to you on a platter.
9/19/2009 8:07 PM
knucklebones
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I can't even waive a 90 something minimum salaried PC catcher in a league and get someone to pick him up. That speaks for itself.
9/19/2009 8:21 PM
zbrent716
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Quote: Originally Posted By knucklebones on 9/19/2009

I can't even waive a 90 something minimum salaried PC catcher in a league and get someone to pick him up. That speaks for itself.

Or something about the importance placed on PC in the particular World(s) you're in. I assure you had you done that in Major Leagues, he'd be picked up.
9/19/2009 8:53 PM
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