Top players still resign too easily Topic

tecwrg
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Quote: Originally Posted By MikeT23 on 10/03/2009
Quote: Originally Posted By ttnorm on 10/03/2009

Quote: Originally Posted By MikeT23 on 10/03/2009
I'm not sure what the "open market" in MLB pays these days. I know A-Rod, Manny, Dunn, Abreu, etc., etc. certainly thought they were worth more than they got.
The market is determined by the buyer's offer not the seller's asking price. The fact that none of those guys hit their asking price is not indicative that the open market did not determine their salary. But back to topic, in HBD, the asking prices of top players in their prime are on the opposite end of the spectrum and well below market, agreed?



Have you ever seen any Type A/B go unsigned in your worlds?
Unsigned Type-A's are not always about salary. Sometimes people shy away from them (at least the lower-end ones) because they don't want to give up a draft pick. You can sometimes find a Type B or a Type nothing that's almost as good as some of the Type A's on the market.
10/3/2009 7:14 PM
kingjohndevi
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so you're saying youve seen type As that were willing to resign?
10/3/2009 7:20 PM
MikeT23
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Quote: Originally Posted By tecwrg on 10/03/2009
Quote: Originally Posted By MikeT23 on 10/03/2009

Quote: Originally Posted By ttnorm on 10/03/2009

Quote: Originally Posted By MikeT23 on 10/03/2009
I'm not sure what the "open market" in MLB pays these days. I know A-Rod, Manny, Dunn, Abreu, etc., etc. certainly thought they were worth more than they got.
The market is determined by the buyer's offer not the seller's asking price. The fact that none of those guys hit their asking price is not indicative that the open market did not determine their salary. But back to topic, in HBD, the asking prices of top players in their prime are on the opposite end of the spectrum and well below market, agreed?



Have you ever seen any Type A/B go unsigned in your worlds?
Unsigned Type-A's are not always about salary. Sometimes people shy away from them (at least the lower-end ones) because they don't want to give up a draft pick. You can sometimes find a Type B or a Type nothing that's almost as good as some of the Type A's on the market


You seem to miss my point. Let's just say I'm shocked.

Some guys don't get signed. If it were compared to real life, a guy is going to take the deal he's offered because he may not get another. So, if a player were to think he'd get Dunned, maybe he'd re-sign and folks would say "He could have gotten more on the open market!"
10/3/2009 8:38 PM
MikeT23
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Quote: Originally Posted By kingjohndevi on 10/03/2009
so you're saying youve seen type As that were willing to resign?



Yes. http://www.whatifsports.com/HBD/Pages/Popups/PlayerProfile.aspx?pid=561269
10/3/2009 8:39 PM
tecwrg
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Quote: Originally Posted By MikeT23 on 10/03/2009
Quote: Originally Posted By tecwrg on 10/03/2009

Quote: Originally Posted By MikeT23 on 10/03/2009

Quote: Originally Posted By ttnorm on 10/03/2009

Quote: Originally Posted By MikeT23 on 10/03/2009
I'm not sure what the "open market" in MLB pays these days. I know A-Rod, Manny, Dunn, Abreu, etc., etc. certainly thought they were worth more than they got.
The market is determined by the buyer's offer not the seller's asking price. The fact that none of those guys hit their asking price is not indicative that the open market did not determine their salary. But back to topic, in HBD, the asking prices of top players in their prime are on the opposite end of the spectrum and well below market, agreed?



Have you ever seen any Type A/B go unsigned in your worlds?
Unsigned Type-A's are not always about salary. Sometimes people shy away from them (at least the lower-end ones) because they don't want to give up a draft pick. You can sometimes find a Type B or a Type nothing that's almost as good as some of the Type A's on the market.



You seem to miss my point. Let's just say I'm shocked.

Some guys don't get signed. If it were compared to real life, a guy is going to take the deal he's offered because he may not get another. So, if a player were to think he'd get Dunned, maybe he'd re-sign and folks would say "He could have gotten more on the open market!"
No, I understand your point perfectly. Did you understand mine?

Some Type A's in HBD don't even get offers for the reason I gave above, despite their reduced contract demands as time goes by. First round draft picks are more precious to some owners in HBD than they may be in real life.
10/3/2009 8:48 PM
MikeT23
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Yes but your "point" didn't seem to recognize where I was going.

I'll type slower.

Some guys may re-sign for the security of KNOWING they'll get a deal. Being good doesn't mean you get signed.
10/3/2009 8:53 PM
tecwrg
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I don't disagree. My point was that in HBD "some guys" may never get the opportunity to re-sign because they never get an offer, period.

If your point is that HBD is different from MLB with respect to Type A's getting signed, I agree completely. You gave one reason, I gave another.
10/3/2009 8:58 PM
ttnorm
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Quote: Originally Posted By deanod on 10/03/2009
It would be awfully complex for the HBD sim to determine an open market value for each player. The only reference right now is a crappy overall formula.

And regardless of how you feel about studs testing the market or not, signing offer sheets with an opportunity to match has absolutely nothing to do with real life.
Wouldn't need a SIM formula. Offer sheets would set the price.

It is true that baseball does not have offer sheets in the CBA. I just brought it up as a way to overcome a weakness in the current game. Right now a top player can be locked in for 4 pre arb seasons - 23 games plus an arb season plus 5 seasons on an extension every time. That has absolutely nothing to do with real life either.
10/3/2009 10:03 PM
a_ersberg
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I love when career minor leaguers want a 4 year deal for 3 mil per year. Get the f-ck out of here with that.
10/3/2009 10:13 PM
jimmystick
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Currently free agents fit into 2 categories:

1) They'll resign no matter what and it's usually a cheap contract.

2) They'll refuse to resign no matter what and test Free Agency.

I propose a third category be ADDED:

3) A player will resign but only for a "fair market" offer. His demands would be a random figure between 110-200% of his "original" demands. A guy who would normally ask for $8M would resign with you only if you offered him between $8.8M-16M per season.

I think option 3 should also be the most common, accounting for about 40-50% of all Free Agents.
10/3/2009 11:16 PM
plague
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Now that's thinking with your DIPSTICK JIMMY.
10/4/2009 12:13 AM
hitman1979
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I've noticed this recently in my worlds. I've seen guys staying with their current team for way less than what they'd make on the open market.

Like this guy: Bartolo Cruz

I find it hard to believe that this guy wouldn't have received any offers for more than what he got.
10/4/2009 7:07 AM
grivfmd1
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Hard to make the case for hitters - the premium in most of my leagues is minimal - they are always available

It is the quality pitchers that take home excessive FA contracts - why I never get to sign any - and mine, at least, always go to FA. To the point that in the 3rd arb year I will usually sign them to 5 yr contracts - assuming I will then lose them to a team that signs them for excessive salary.

Then 2 years later the next owner will be trying to trade the 39 year old deteriating player and his excessive contract for a bag of peanuts.
10/4/2009 9:15 AM
grivfmd1
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Half the owners, even some with experience, think they are Steinbrenner and every FA pitcher is Sabathia. When he turns out to be Carl Pavano and they are stuck with worthless contracts.

In the real world if a player has an offer from a team that could get him a ring for X, he may turn down the offer for X+3M from a non-contender. Have not seen it here even when "making the playoffs" is the supposed prime motivator. Have lost players (refused to sign) from league champions who have "making the playoffs" their prime motivater (if you believe the story in the box) and watch them signed by cellar dwellers.

FA is imperfect, and always will be (unlikely they can program behavior) - live with it - learn it and try not to $crew yourself
10/4/2009 9:36 AM
iain
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Quote: Originally Posted By ttnorm on 10/03/2009
The unrealisticly below market demands of the top players helps to unrealistically perpetuate the supremacy of the top teams.

Has there been any discussion along the lines of implementing an Offer Sheet contract? Players who were in a free agency season could receive qualifying offers that would need to be matched by the existing club to retain the player. Thoughts?

1. Define "top players".

2. Type As file for FA every time, in my experience.

Maybe you're finding that a "top" player isn't necessarily rated all that high in his OVR, and so doesn't qualify as Type A, thereby making him more likely to re-sign??
10/4/2009 2:18 PM
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