what happened to sable? Topic

oldave
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not sure i totally agree, zee, but i see your point.

i guess what i am saying is that the engine is the THE thing to you and me and daalty, but im just not sure newguy is going to appreciate the difference.

Do you think the average rookie is going to appreciate the difference, immediately, when HD5.0 is released?
12/4/2009 12:23 PM
zhawks
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The game isn't going to retain coaches, especially new guys, who don't feel that they have any control over their teams. Yeah I think the engine is a no brainer #1 fix.
12/4/2009 12:33 PM
oldave
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do you feel you have NO control over your teams , zee?

i mean, i agree that it could be much much better, but as it is you still have SOME control. else, why are we even playing?

and, it seems to me that some coaches are able to consistenly win, so that is an indicator that thye have acheieved some level of control to allow them to outplay thier competitors.

if think if you surveyed newguys now and asked them a bunch of queestions about how they feel the engine is working and how much control they have....

and then you did the same thing with a different batch of rookies after the "fix"......

im not sure there would be any difference in the two surveys unless seble hits a screamingmonsterlinedrive homerun into the upper deck. and, based on the length of time it is taking, and the comments of those who understand the complexity of this type of project...i think that seems very unlikely.

of course, there is one other thing that could result in a difference between the surveys.... if seble strikes out swinging and sulks back to the dugout wondering where it all went wrong.

i really dont expect that though. i do have faith that seble with the help of his beta testers will be able to hit a single at least and maybe even a ground rule double.

But it is my contention that in that scenario where HD5.0 is just a little better, the vets will notice it, but the rookies may not.

in fact, one of the things i really hope to see out of the new engine is less random variability in the results. and, thinking back to when i was a rookie, i can promise you that there were quite a lot of games that i went into feeling like variability and randomness were my only friends. no?
12/4/2009 1:54 PM
oldave
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and, just to be clear, zee,

i am not suggesting that some other project should come before the engine fix. i am suggesting that it is possible for new users to continue being attracted to the game exactly as it is now and so it wouldnt hurt to do something to bring folks in even while we are in waiting for the fix.

anywasy, thats what im saying. i could be wrong though
12/4/2009 1:58 PM
zhawks
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I don't feel that i have nearly as much control game to game as the rng does. Yes I will say that. And I don't feel I have as much control now (besides recruiting) then I did in the past.

I think that new coaches that would come in now due to an increase in marketing would see a lack (or at least feel a lack) of control over their games and I do not believe that would be useful to HD.
12/4/2009 2:03 PM
acn24
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Quote: Originally Posted By oldave on 12/04/2009
and, just to be clear, zee,

i am not suggesting that some other project should come before the engine fix. i am suggesting that it is possible for new users to continue being attracted to the game exactly as it is now and so it wouldnt hurt to do something to bring folks in even while we are in waiting for the fix.

anywasy, thats what im saying. i could be wrong though



I think the biggest problem with attracting new users prior to the fix being implemented is how some people in their first or second seasons respond to any glitches (which will probably occur). I think that WIS might worry that they would lose the new users quickly.
12/4/2009 2:06 PM
mmt0315
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This control over our teams thing is perhaps the most overblown aspect of this game AND I fear the engine fix might destroy a relatively good product. Most of you math guys like to constantly lean on sample size (and with good reason) when one of these threads with a fluke box score pops up but in reality of the thousands of games which are simmed each night 99% of them get it right, just nobody talks about them. Even in real life you see results which simply make no sense on paper ie Cuse losing to DII @ home earlier this season, Wisonsin waxing Duke the other night. It happens.

If there was something wrong with the engine, you wouldnt see OR, Clone, Lost, Gill dominating across multiple worlds as consistantly as they have. Those guys understand how the engine works and build their teams around those pricipals.

Another constant complaint I see is regarding a dominant player. But this too is something the engine allows and is pretty much a user based decision but within the parameters of the engine. I dont track very many teams but can tell you on my Kansas team the last two years my leading scorer averaged about 16-18 ppg on teams that made the NT and were 20+ win teams. Sullys Gtown team just had a player average 16 PPG in winning the Big East and reaching the Sweet 16. The reason teams dont see more dominant players is because of player distribution. Meaning you gotta give a guy 30% or more distribution which most teams do not do. In real life most of the nations top teams dont feature guys who average 24-25 ppg and those players are usually found in the smaller conferences where one player can carry a team.

Ive also noticed more the last 2-3 seasons that gameplans are being executed in a manner youd expect them to, even in losses. A perfect gameplan doesnt always mean youll win the game.

I really worry that this engine overhaul is going to ruin the game. EDIT - Since some of you [name starting with MC :)]couldnt understand the comparison without taking it personally this sentence has been removed.
12/4/2009 2:10 PM
mccabemi
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Quote: Originally Posted By mmt0315 on 12/04/2009
This control over our teams thing is perhaps the most overblown aspect of this game AND I fear the engine fix might destroy a relatively good product. Most of you math guys like to constantly lean on sample size (and with good reason) when one of these threads with a fluke box score pops up but in reality of the thousands of games which are simmed each night 99% of them get it right, just nobody talks about them. Even in real life you see results which simply make no sense on paper ie Cuse losing to DII @ home earlier this season, Wisonsin waxing Duke the other night. It happens.

If there was something wrong with the engine, you wouldnt see OR, Clone, Lost, Gill dominating across multiple worlds as consistantly as they have. Those guys understand how the engine works and build their teams around those pricipals.

Another constant complaint I see is regarding a dominant player. But this too is something the engine allows and is pretty much a user based decision but within the parameters of the engine. I dont track very many teams but can tell you on my Kansas team the last two years my leading scorer averaged about 16-18 ppg on teams that made the NT and were 20+ win teams. Sullys Gtown team just had a player average 16 PPG in winning the Big East and reaching the Sweet 16. The reason teams dont see more dominant players is because of player distribution. Meaning you gotta give a guy 30% or more distribution which most teams do not do. In real life most of the nations top teams dont feature guys who average 24-25 ppg and those players are usually found in the smaller conferences where one player can carry a team.

Ive also noticed more the last 2-3 seasons that gameplans are being executed in a manner youd expect them to, even in losses. A perfect gameplan doesnt always mean youll win the game.

I really worry that this engine overhaul is going to ruin the game. Sorta reminds me of this years election, sometimes people want "change" to such a degree, you potentially can destroy a good thing.

You lost all credibility with me when you insulted Obama.
12/4/2009 2:12 PM
oldave
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fair point, ac. yup. point well taken. and perhaps that has been zee's point all along.
12/4/2009 2:13 PM
oldave
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oh boy, here we go.

come 'on fellas, havent we enough troubles here without bringing politics into the mix?
12/4/2009 2:15 PM
oldresorter
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Quote: Originally Posted By mmt0315 on 12/04/2009
This control over our teams thing is perhaps the most overblown aspect of this game AND I fear the engine fix might destroy a relatively good product. Most of you math guys like to constantly lean on sample size (and with good reason) when one of these threads with a fluke box score pops up but in reality of the thousands of games which are simmed each night 99% of them get it right, just nobody talks about them. Even in real life you see results which simply make no sense on paper ie Cuse losing to DII @ home earlier this season, Wisonsin waxing Duke the other night. It happens.

If there was something wrong with the engine, you wouldnt see OR, Clone, Lost, Gill dominating across multiple worlds as consistantly as they have. Those guys understand how the engine works and build their teams around those pricipals.

Another constant complaint I see is regarding a dominant player. But this too is something the engine allows and is pretty much a user based decision but within the parameters of the engine. I dont track very many teams but can tell you on my Kansas team the last two years my leading scorer averaged about 16-18 ppg on teams that made the NT and were 20+ win teams. Sullys Gtown team just had a player average 16 PPG in winning the Big East and reaching the Sweet 16. The reason teams dont see more dominant players is because of player distribution. Meaning you gotta give a guy 30% or more distribution which most teams do not do. In real life most of the nations top teams dont feature guys who average 24-25 ppg and those players are usually found in the smaller conferences where one player can carry a team.

Ive also noticed more the last 2-3 seasons that gameplans are being executed in a manner youd expect them to, even in losses. A perfect gameplan doesnt always mean youll win the game.

I really worry that this engine overhaul is going to ruin the game. Sorta reminds me of this years election, sometimes people want "change" to such a degree, you potentially can destroy a good thing.

I won a national title in world 2 with a 20ppg, NPOY on my roster, motion offense, he was the player of the game in 4 or 5 of the 6 national tounry games, scored 28 in the finals
12/4/2009 2:17 PM
oldave
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but as to the main thrust of emem's post...

good stuff, real good stuff. not sure i would totally agree with all of it, as i have been a "pro-change" guy from the start (i mean in HD! ;-))

but i have had this converesation with OR several times and i have certianly come around to the idea that there is definitely potentila for the game to come out of this fix worse than she went in. i really hope that will not be the case... and i think i am still betting that the game improves, but i do see that the downside is a real possibility.

12/4/2009 2:21 PM
oldave
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hmmm..

i just realized that i am arguing against both sides?

i guess its easy to get caught in the crossfire when youre sitting on the fence.
12/4/2009 2:23 PM
mmt0315
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To further my point. Many say "the engine is broken". What's broken about it, specifically? And if it was previously broken (around the time of the "coin flip era") but is now fixed, why a complete overhaul. I think the coin flip issue wasn't an engine problem so much as a problem created by the implementation of potential which once it was fixed, we started to see things return to normal.
12/4/2009 2:29 PM
zhawks
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Quote: Originally Posted By mccabemi on 12/04/2009
Quote: Originally Posted By mmt0315 on 12/04/2009

This control over our teams thing is perhaps the most overblown aspect of this game AND I fear the engine fix might destroy a relatively good product. Most of you math guys like to constantly lean on sample size (and with good reason) when one of these threads with a fluke box score pops up but in reality of the thousands of games which are simmed each night 99% of them get it right, just nobody talks about them. Even in real life you see results which simply make no sense on paper ie Cuse losing to DII @ home earlier this season, Wisonsin waxing Duke the other night. It happens.

If there was something wrong with the engine, you wouldnt see OR, Clone, Lost, Gill dominating across multiple worlds as consistantly as they have. Those guys understand how the engine works and build their teams around those pricipals.

Another constant complaint I see is regarding a dominant player. But this too is something the engine allows and is pretty much a user based decision but within the parameters of the engine. I dont track very many teams but can tell you on my Kansas team the last two years my leading scorer averaged about 16-18 ppg on teams that made the NT and were 20+ win teams. Sullys Gtown team just had a player average 16 PPG in winning the Big East and reaching the Sweet 16. The reason teams dont see more dominant players is because of player distribution. Meaning you gotta give a guy 30% or more distribution which most teams do not do. In real life most of the nations top teams dont feature guys who average 24-25 ppg and those players are usually found in the smaller conferences where one player can carry a team.

Ive also noticed more the last 2-3 seasons that gameplans are being executed in a manner youd expect them to, even in losses. A perfect gameplan doesnt always mean youll win the game.

I really worry that this engine overhaul is going to ruin the game. Sorta reminds me of this years election, sometimes people want "change" to such a degree, you potentially can destroy a good thing.

You lost all credibility with me when you insulted Obama
ha
12/4/2009 2:40 PM
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